What brands and models?
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TroyMorris
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Fri May 26, 2023 7:16 am
What brands and models?
I'd like to get into an international AP program. I'd rather purchase once and cry once. What brands and models of handguns should I consider for usage at the highest levels of competition?
Re: What brands and models?
Steyr, Morini, Pardini & Walther are the top brands. Steyr & Morini have historically won the majority of gold medals at the Olympics. They both have good support through the host of this forum (Pilkington). Steyr also provides excellent videos on making basic repairs & adjustments. The other two companies make good pistols, but I've heard mixed reviews about their support in the US.
Re: What brands and models?
I have a Walther LP500 and I'd feel fine recommending Walther//Umarex USA for the support they've given me. Great customer service for my gun, including sending me all the parts to reseal it.
Re: What brands and models?
Do not forget about Feinwerkbau - P8X is an excellent pistol.
Re: What brands and models?
I'm sure it's a great pistol, based on my past experience with their air guns. However, I'm not sure who sells them in the USA, or services them. The few places that list them for sale are out of stock. I wouldn't spend $2K on an air pistol that nobody in the USA will service, or provide parts. All the places that advertise repairs on Feinwerkbau's appear to only work on their rifles.
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brent375hh
- Posts: 730
- Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:04 am
- Location: Minneapolis
Re: What brands and models?
I have owned other brands that let me down, both in design and customer service.
I have adopted Steyr mechanical trigger pistols as the most reliable, simple to adjust/service, and customer service ease of getting spares. I have never had Pilkington's staff tell me that a desired spare is out of stock, and ship it to me that day, not order from Europe.
Some people think that mechanical triggers are not competitive, but the last Olympic gold was won with one, and they are usually present in current World Cup finals.
Other brands can have issues with obsolete models, not selling parts directly to individuals, and no service centers in the USA. The fact that Steyr has a series of YouTube self help service videos is a testament to the simplicity of design, and ease to service.
I have adopted Steyr mechanical trigger pistols as the most reliable, simple to adjust/service, and customer service ease of getting spares. I have never had Pilkington's staff tell me that a desired spare is out of stock, and ship it to me that day, not order from Europe.
Some people think that mechanical triggers are not competitive, but the last Olympic gold was won with one, and they are usually present in current World Cup finals.
Other brands can have issues with obsolete models, not selling parts directly to individuals, and no service centers in the USA. The fact that Steyr has a series of YouTube self help service videos is a testament to the simplicity of design, and ease to service.
Last edited by brent375hh on Sun Jul 02, 2023 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What brands and models?
SportShootingDepot have them and will be able to provide parts. In terms of servicing - there is Pilkington and also now Tim Schmeltzer who is with TWS.Gwhite wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 7:22 pm I'm sure it's a great pistol, based on my past experience with their air guns. However, I'm not sure who sells them in the USA, or services them. The few places that list them for sale are out of stock. I wouldn't spend $2K on an air pistol that nobody in the USA will service, or provide parts. All the places that advertise repairs on Feinwerkbau's appear to only work on their rifles.
Re: What brands and models?
I'm always fascinated when people can so clearly decide for themselves that such and such trigger is "better" for them or in general feel out that one pistol is the one for them after trying them out once. I thought after 27 years of reasonably high level competition I should be someone who can feel these things too. But apparently I lack said skill? I can feel they are "different" but I'm rarely sure about "better".
My fear of missing out usually gets reduced once I see people diffusely justify these things with phrases including "... fit like a glove". Which makes me think people are not actually judging the gun but rather its setup. Grips and triggers on modern AP/RF/FP guns can highly adjustable When trying club colleagues guns I found the same model feel absolutely horrible or perfectly fine.
I get the impression people do the equivalent of going to a car dealership to try out cars by sitting in them and going by first impressions without making any adjustments. "On this one the seat is too far forward.", "On this one I can't see through the mirrors", "Wow this one just instantly fits me". That's not really a quality of the car but rather an observation of whoever used it before.
I shot Morini forever because as a junior I was given one by a sponsor. So I figured now that I have the means I should do the extended experiment and set up some current models "like I mean it" and quantify for myself what the differences actually are. So over time I acquired a CM200EI, a EVO 10 E and a P8X and gave them the full treatment. Installed my preferred size foresight on all of them, put the same trigger blade I like on them, carefully adjust the trigger over an extended time and most importantly fully customized the grips by sanding, puttying and in one case copying them.
I then trained with all of them over months and also ended up competing with all of them. Obviously still refining along the way. This turned out to be a useful exercise because I would make an observation with one and apply these changes to the others having all of them converge closer to my optimal. Including the one I was already using before the experiment.
However the overall conclusion was... inconclusive. They are different but I still don't know how I would decide which one is better. All of them "fit like a glove" because I made them fit. All of them have a "telephatic trigger". And I can't fault any of them. I truly don't get what imperfections I'm supposed to feel in a trigger to make one better than the other. When correctly set up all of them are buttery smooth, have linearly increasing force in the first stage, then stand absolutely still on the second stage until they break without the trigger moving.
One obvious way to determine what is "better" after all this would seem to pick the one I scored the highest with, right? Over the last two years I scored the same top competition result of 576 twice, once with the Steyr and once with the Morini. The Feinwerkbau holds my training record at 581 but I scored very close with the others. The same overall observations hold with the more frequent 40 shot matches where the Morini has the lead with 389 but I scored in the high 80 with all of them. My day to day form has orders of magnitude more influence in every case.
So I'm still stuck at "different but not necessarily better" with all of the top models. I mostly compete the Morini out of habit. The cynic in me thinks that the people that are so sure of their choices after casually trying some models are either buying the grip and not the gun or they feel the differences and then project whatever they want onto it. "This feels different and won the Olympics. So this kind of different must be better."
The useful thing that came out of this was the optimization process. With different guns it's easier to experiment and change one while still knowing the other ones will be fine. Also while they have converged there are still subtle differences which can be used in training. If I feel stuck with one gun I shoot 20 shots with one of the others as a palate cleanser to get me unstuck.
But in terms of "best gun" I concluded it entirely depends on the setup and you might as well buy for other reasons. Proximity of support, optics, who comes first in the alphabet...
My fear of missing out usually gets reduced once I see people diffusely justify these things with phrases including "... fit like a glove". Which makes me think people are not actually judging the gun but rather its setup. Grips and triggers on modern AP/RF/FP guns can highly adjustable When trying club colleagues guns I found the same model feel absolutely horrible or perfectly fine.
I get the impression people do the equivalent of going to a car dealership to try out cars by sitting in them and going by first impressions without making any adjustments. "On this one the seat is too far forward.", "On this one I can't see through the mirrors", "Wow this one just instantly fits me". That's not really a quality of the car but rather an observation of whoever used it before.
I shot Morini forever because as a junior I was given one by a sponsor. So I figured now that I have the means I should do the extended experiment and set up some current models "like I mean it" and quantify for myself what the differences actually are. So over time I acquired a CM200EI, a EVO 10 E and a P8X and gave them the full treatment. Installed my preferred size foresight on all of them, put the same trigger blade I like on them, carefully adjust the trigger over an extended time and most importantly fully customized the grips by sanding, puttying and in one case copying them.
I then trained with all of them over months and also ended up competing with all of them. Obviously still refining along the way. This turned out to be a useful exercise because I would make an observation with one and apply these changes to the others having all of them converge closer to my optimal. Including the one I was already using before the experiment.
However the overall conclusion was... inconclusive. They are different but I still don't know how I would decide which one is better. All of them "fit like a glove" because I made them fit. All of them have a "telephatic trigger". And I can't fault any of them. I truly don't get what imperfections I'm supposed to feel in a trigger to make one better than the other. When correctly set up all of them are buttery smooth, have linearly increasing force in the first stage, then stand absolutely still on the second stage until they break without the trigger moving.
One obvious way to determine what is "better" after all this would seem to pick the one I scored the highest with, right? Over the last two years I scored the same top competition result of 576 twice, once with the Steyr and once with the Morini. The Feinwerkbau holds my training record at 581 but I scored very close with the others. The same overall observations hold with the more frequent 40 shot matches where the Morini has the lead with 389 but I scored in the high 80 with all of them. My day to day form has orders of magnitude more influence in every case.
So I'm still stuck at "different but not necessarily better" with all of the top models. I mostly compete the Morini out of habit. The cynic in me thinks that the people that are so sure of their choices after casually trying some models are either buying the grip and not the gun or they feel the differences and then project whatever they want onto it. "This feels different and won the Olympics. So this kind of different must be better."
The useful thing that came out of this was the optimization process. With different guns it's easier to experiment and change one while still knowing the other ones will be fine. Also while they have converged there are still subtle differences which can be used in training. If I feel stuck with one gun I shoot 20 shots with one of the others as a palate cleanser to get me unstuck.
But in terms of "best gun" I concluded it entirely depends on the setup and you might as well buy for other reasons. Proximity of support, optics, who comes first in the alphabet...
Re: What brands and models?
My standard answer...
1/ Buy the best you can afford to buy. - quality
2/ Buy something in current production. - parts
3/ Buy something with local dealer support. - support
4/ Make a short list. - avalible
5/ Visit your local club and see if you can try each pistol. - feel, fit
This will give you a pistol with years of service and support,
remember good quality pistols always hold their value.
1/ Buy the best you can afford to buy. - quality
2/ Buy something in current production. - parts
3/ Buy something with local dealer support. - support
4/ Make a short list. - avalible
5/ Visit your local club and see if you can try each pistol. - feel, fit
This will give you a pistol with years of service and support,
remember good quality pistols always hold their value.
Re: What brands and models?
One reason I like Steyr pistols is that they haven't messed with their cylinder design in decades. It works well, and any Steyr PCP cylinder (of the correct length) will fit any pistol they have made. That means that 10 (or probably 20) years down the road, you will have no trouble getting "in date" cylinders. They even have conversion kits to retrofit PCP cylinders onto their older CO2 pistols. The O-rings that seal to the cylinder are easily accessible and replaceable.
By comparison, Walther seems to change their cylinder design with almost every new pistol they release. Maybe they've final settled on a design they like, but the seals on the current cylinders are down inside a hole in the cylinder, and look to be very difficult to replace.
By comparison, Walther seems to change their cylinder design with almost every new pistol they release. Maybe they've final settled on a design they like, but the seals on the current cylinders are down inside a hole in the cylinder, and look to be very difficult to replace.
Re: What brands and models?
Best reply...David M wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2023 8:05 pm My standard answer...
1/ Buy the best you can afford to buy. - quality
2/ Buy something in current production. - parts
3/ Buy something with local dealer support. - support
4/ Make a short list. - avalible
5/ Visit your local club and see if you can try each pistol. - feel, fit
This will give you a pistol with years of service and support,
remember good quality pistols always hold their value.
(I would sum it up to -> Styer... :) )
Re: What brands and models?
Feinwerkbau, Steyr, Walther, Morini, Pardini .... they're all much of a muchness. It all depends which one suits you. I've had a Morini CM162 EI, a CM200EI and a a Steyr LP2, and I couldn't get along with any of them. I found a Feinwerkbau P8X, and it was love at first sight.TroyMorris wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2023 5:23 am I'd like to get into an international AP program. I'd rather purchase once and cry once. What brands and models of handguns should I consider for usage at the highest levels of competition?
