TargetTalk

I seem to have developed a bad habit when shooting .22 slow fire, of grouping the bulk of my shots low and left. Its not a sighting issue as it happens on more than one pistol, and from the bench when locked in, the sights are spot on. It does not seem to happen with rapid fire, nor does it happen with AP. I'm a right handed shooter and right-eye dominant with intermediate skills. I'm thinking this is probably just a case of recoil anticipation since its not happening on AP, and it's the classic symptom, but wondering why its cropped up only over the past few months. The only thing I can come up with is that I've been shooting way more .22lr and less AP, and also less practice with larger calibers over the time that this has cropped up. Any sage tips on what to work on, what has worked for others, to break this habit?

Well, I might suggest you pay attention to the pressure from your little finger during discarge, and/or possible unconsciously relaxing of wrist tension at the moment of discharge?

Just my 5 cent.

The vast majority of 7 O'clock shots (for a right-hander) are the result of being too aggressive with the trigger. If they are occurring during slow-fire only, you are most likely over-thinking the shot. You are waiting until everything is "perfect", and then "going for it". That, or a little vice in your head is telling you that you've been holding too long. Instead of putting the pistol down & starting your shot-process over again, you force the shot off.

If you don't believe me, get some dummy ammo (or clean duds) and have someone help you with a "ball and dummy" exercise where they load your magazine at random with good & bad rounds. If you are yanking the pistol down, it won't be masked by the recoil when the shot goes "click", and you (and your "coach") will see it.

In sustained fire, you don't have time to try to dress things up too much and you are automatically committed to making the shot. Think about the sort of trigger squeeze you use in sustained fire, and try to duplicate that in slow fire. Dry firing with a focus on a smooth squeeze with NO sight movement (beyond your natural wobble) is also good.

The light trigger on the air pistol may also be a part of the problem. If you shoot that a lot, your finger has gotten used to the lighter trigger, and it's having a hard time ramping up to the heavier trigger pull the .22 requires. Your finger applies enough force to shoot the air pistol, and nothing happens. In order to get the shot off, you are forcing it off, rather than smoothly increasing the force until it breaks naturally. Dry firing the .22 before you shoot slow fire will help. Also, after you have re-calibrated your trigger squeeze shooting sustained fire in practice, try going back to shooting slow fire. I think you will find that the shots break a lot faster & cleaner.

Good luck! Learning to shoot well is a journey, and you have just hit a detour. In this case, dry firing is probably the best way to get back on the main road.

Many thanks to both of you for taking the time to respond. I will give all this a try. I definitely feel the difference between AP release (effortless) and the more deliberate ‘squeeze’ on my .22 I’m sure I can benefit from some coaching, and the dummy loads were on the top of my to-do list. I tend to shoot alone more often than not which just reinforces bad habits sometimes.

You can do "ball & dummy" solo, you just have to learn to load the magazine & insert it in the pistol (safely!!) with your eyes closed. Take a mix of 3 live rounds & two dummies, close your eyes & scramble them up a bit before loading the magazine. Insert the magazine in the pistol, and close the bolt/slide before opening your eyes. Just be very sure to keep the pistol pointed in a safe direction, and pick it up carefully so you don't get your fingers near the trigger. I'd practice this a few times with dummies only until you are confident that you can do it safely.

Gwhite wrote:You can do "ball & dummy" solo, you just have to learn to load the magazine & insert it in the pistol (safely!!) with your eyes closed. Take a mix of 3 live rounds & two dummies, close your eyes & scramble them up a bit before loading the magazine. Insert the magazine in the pistol, and close the bolt/slide before opening your eyes. Just be very sure to keep the pistol pointed in a safe direction, and pick it up carefully so you don't get your fingers near the trigger. I'd practice this a few times with dummies only until you are confident that you can do it safely.

Brilliant! Thank you...I'll give that a go later this week.

I would suggest that maybe you are holding on for a longer period as you are increasing the trigger pressure and possibly trying to get 'too perfect' an aim, at the expense of actual loosing focus and concentration slightly, which can then result in overtired arm muscles and as the shot breaks, the arm position collapses slightly causing the low left result.

Here is one of the common error diagnosis tools:



Unfortunately, I have a similar problem (jerking the trigger, tightening fingers). It's best to nip this sort of thing in the bud, so to speak. Dry firing can help (or at least Yur Yev talks about dry firing), but I think the ball and dummy exercises may be better. It's all psychological; without stress this does not occur.

Sorry, but although you see this one everywhere, I hate it. It's missing one of the biggest errors made with iron sights and a 6 O'clock or sub-6 hold (looking at the target gives 12 O'clock shots), but what the heck does "breaking the wrist down" mean? You might as well say "pointing the pistol down" will produce low shots. I've NEVER seen a shooter get low shots from dropping their head.

Here's a better one, that is based off an ancient card the Caswell target carrier company used to hand out:

Gwhite wrote:Sorry, but although you see this one everywhere, I hate it. It's missing one of the biggest errors made with iron sights and a 6 O'clock or sub-6 hold (looking at the target gives 12 O'clock shots), but what the heck does "breaking the wrist down" mean? You might as well say "pointing the pistol down" will produce low shots. I've NEVER seen a shooter get low shots from dropping their head. Here's a better one, that is based off an ancient card the Caswell target carrier company used to hand out:

DIAGNOSE.PDF

I would suggest that your Caswell chart has some of the same ambiguities that you criticize for the standard chart. What the heck does "snatching at the stock" mean, or "riding the recoil"?

-Marty-

Although the terms may be a bit out of use these days, they are:

1) "Snatching at the stock" means suddenly increasing your overall grip pressure in anticipation of the recoil. This chart was created before nicely fitting "orthopedic" target grips were common, and the direction the shots go may vary a bit depending on the fit of the grip to the hand. With something like a basic Colt 1911 grip, a right handed shooter will pull shots down towards 4:00. I know that on my Morini free pistol, if I tense up as the shot breaks, it tends to be more at 3:00 because of the way the grip is built up under the base of my thumb.

2) "Riding the recoil" is another form of anticipation, and results from the shooter "helping" the recoil. I saw a shooter at a match this weekend who had a classic case. The pistol would recoil naturally, and then he'd give it an extra bit of movement in the same direction. He was moving the pistol an additional distance about one and a half times the size of the actual recoil. It seems to be mostly guys who've watch too many Dirty Harry movies.... They are convinced that a pistol is going to recoil a lot, and if it won't do it "right" by itself, they are determined to make sure the pistol moves enough to meet their expectations. If you've subconsciously decided the pistol is going to recoil and it needs some "help", you can anticipate and begin to move the pistol in that direction as the shot breaks.

I hope that helps.

While I must admit, this is the first time I've seen the Caswell diagnostic target, the description of shifting focus from the front sight to the black resulting in high shots does make sense. I've seen this more shooting .45 slow fire and have been trying to figure out why that happens sporadically. But have noticed, when the focus is more on the pistol and not the target those high shots don't appear. I've never really understood what "breaking wrist up" meant in the AMU diagnostic target.

I'm not sure quite why, but if you aim below the center of the black, there is a strong natural tendencies for the sights to drift up. I have no idea if it happens with a center hold. If it does, it's probably because of the grip angle of the pistol. Most pistols have to be held down at the muzzle with some muscle tension. If you have 12 O'clock shots because you are losing front sight focus, you also won't be able to call the shots, because you will have no idea where the front sight was when the shot broke.

When I go through this problem (seems like I cycle through all of them eventually) it's a combination of collapsing during the break and snatching the trigger to try and catch the sights before I collapse. The fix is always to focus on follow through and doubling my concentration on seeing the sights through the trigger break.

Sight picture, and trigger control. Watch the sights, but don't admire them.

Mr. Warren Potter wrote some good words here:
http://www.pilkguns.com/c7-shtml/
http://www.pilkguns.com/c15af-shtml/
http://www.pilkguns.com/c4-shtml/

Thanks to our host for making these available.

Thanks for those articles, particularly the one on 'follow through'. As a rhetorical post, I tend to have little to no trouble keeping my rounds in the black when practicing. Similarly, during dry firing, it's difficult to create or emulate the behavior known as 'jerking'. However, even during the weekly league matches things are different. Stress, which appears to be primarily related to score, plays a much larger role in my shooting behavior.

For example, recently I shot in a sectional (NRA sanctioned event) and my performance was poor. However, looking to make the best of any situation, I noticed my shot execution process did not work well under that type of tournament environment. I didn't get 'chicken finger', but was 'jerking' the trigger and was visibly nervous. It's not like I was going to 'win' anything or even expected what I consider a good score. But, the score and performance was my focus. That caused me much more stress.

I need to keep my focus on my shot process and not score, which sounds easy enough (but isn't it seems). I think that is why I can 'goof around' and shoot acceptably during individual practice but 'choke' during league matches and 'choke even more' in a sanctioned match. Working on follow through and calling my shots are two parts of my shot process I intend to focus next.

I've practiced meditation for several years in a bio-feedback approach to reduce blood pressure, because it works. Meditation is also a process and takes time and repetition. Overall, to borrow a quote from Cool Hand Luke, I think my basic problem is "cause you got to get your mind right". I should probably save this small essay, rather than release it to the ether and take up bandwidth, but it may help me to put this message in a bottle.

Until you get technique under control adjust your sights high and right...you will score significantly better.
When you start shooting high and right move your sights low and left....that’s the reason for having sights.

Gwhite wrote:You can do "ball & dummy" solo, you just have to learn to load the magazine & insert it in the pistol (safely!!) with your eyes closed. Take a mix of 3 live rounds & two dummies, close your eyes & scramble them up a bit before loading the magazine. Insert the magazine in the pistol, and close the bolt/slide before opening your eyes. Just be very sure to keep the pistol pointed in a safe direction, and pick it up carefully so you don't get your fingers near the trigger. I'd practice this a few times with dummies only until you are confident that you can do it safely.

After realizing all my dummy rounds were crushed from dry fire, I finally picked up some fresh ones and did a test as suggested above. I was surprised to find that I'm doing an ever so slight anticipatory flinch which certainly explains my downward patterns. BTW, they are all still in the black...just markedly occupying the lower left 7 O'clock area. In rapid fire this does not seem to happen and any strays are quite random rather than markedly grouped. Thank you Gwhite for the suggestion. Now I've got some work to do!