Tom:
You are very close to what I am doing. You probably do not need to size the new starling brass the first time as you are expanding it beyond new dimensions. I always do just out of habit. The starling brass may be a little thicker than the Remington I am using, but you should still be okay expanding to .314. You may want to buy a 32 ACP case gauge (UniqueTec carries them) so you can do a quick check when loading.
The NOE 32 AP (for 32 ACP) plug should be .311 X .315 and the NOE 32 P (for 32 S&W Long) is .313 X .317. (I say should be on the NOE 32 AP plug as I do not have one. I bought a 3 die Hornady die set which included a - single tier beveled- .311 expander that I use on new brass for the first expansion step).
All three of the NOE expansion plugs use the Lee Universal Expander die. You use one plug for a batch of brass, then take that plug out of the Lee Universal Expander die and put in a larger plug and run the batch of brass through again. Or you can have multiple Lee Universal Expander dies, one for each NOE plug.
The one thing you did not mention is you need to modify the Lee Universal Expander die so the NOE expander plugs will sit about 1/4 inch deeper in the Lee Universal Expander die (very simple task for a machinist). The reason for this is the 32 ACP cases are so short that even with a standard Lee Universal Expander die screwed all the way in until it touches the shell plate on the Dillon 550 (thread on Lee Universal Expander Die will hit when you do this) the NOE expander plug is not inserted far enough into the case for the second tier of the NOE plug (portion that is .004 bigger) to insert in the case. You need to modify the Lee Universal Expander die so the second tier of NOE expander plug can go into the case about 1/16 inch to do it's job.
I would recommend you put you oversized Lee sizing and depriming die in the first position of CNC toolhead. Then put the modified Lee Universal Expander die in the second position of the toolhead. Adjust the position of each of these two dies so they are the proper depth. You should be able to change NOE expander plugs in the Lee Universal Expander die with having to readjust the position of the Expander die.
Then for new brass, I would
1) install the .311 X .315 NOE plug in the Lee Universal Expander die and run a batch of new brass through the (oversized) sizing die (with decapping pin in place to deprime and prime) and the Lee Universal Expander die.
2) remove and .311 X 315 NOE plug and replace it with a .313 X .317 NOE plug PLUS remove the decapping pin from the sizing die and run the batch of brass through the sizing and expander dies again.
3) If you want .314 expanded brass, remove the .313 X .317 NOE plug with a .314 X .318 NOE plug and run the batch of brass through the sizing and expander dies again.
This allows you run batches of brass through without having to remove dies from the tool head and not having to continually readjust the depth of the dies.
For already fired brass you just do steps 2 or 3, but with the decapping pin in place on the sizing die.
If you want the cadillac version put modified Lee Universal Expander dies in positions 3 and 4 of the CNC toolhead as well. Put .311 X .315 NOE plug in position 2, .313 X .317 NOE plug in position 3, and .314 X .317 NOE plug in position 4.
And just leave them there if you are expanding to .314 and run brass through all three expanders whether new or already fired. It does not hurt to run brass through an expander that is smaller than the brass.
If you decide to try Hornady 60r XTP bullets you will need a standard sizing die and only use the .311 X .315 expander.
Hope this helps
George
Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
George,
This confirms what I was thinking. Leed dies are only $15.00 each at Midway so I'll get three of them and set them up permanently in another tool head.Is it necessary for this one to be the CNC clamped variety? I already have a standard Dillon toolhead I could use for this purpose.
Following your logic, my calculation for the sizing die is .314 + .0228 (wall thickness) = .3368. That's just below the max mouth OD specified for 32 ACP. Your final sized case is .001 below your calculated OD and the die is .002 below. Based on this I would need a sizing die at .335, or .006 oversize. Before ordering I'm going to call Starline tomorrow and see if they can give me their spec for wall thickness to verify my measurement.
I already have a case gauge from Uniquetek so I can check my work as I go.
Thanks again for your help,
Tom
This confirms what I was thinking. Leed dies are only $15.00 each at Midway so I'll get three of them and set them up permanently in another tool head.Is it necessary for this one to be the CNC clamped variety? I already have a standard Dillon toolhead I could use for this purpose.
Following your logic, my calculation for the sizing die is .314 + .0228 (wall thickness) = .3368. That's just below the max mouth OD specified for 32 ACP. Your final sized case is .001 below your calculated OD and the die is .002 below. Based on this I would need a sizing die at .335, or .006 oversize. Before ordering I'm going to call Starline tomorrow and see if they can give me their spec for wall thickness to verify my measurement.
I already have a case gauge from Uniquetek so I can check my work as I go.
Thanks again for your help,
Tom
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
I spoke with Starline this morning. They manufacture 32 ACP brass to .011 nominal wall thickness.
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
Tom;
You will want to use a CNC clamped toolhead for the sizing and expanding dies. The reason is to better line up the cases for primer insertion on the Dillon 550. A side benefit is the expander die(s) will be closer to true center.
The exact dimensions of your sizing die is not critical since you are using expander dies (you just need to be close). The intent (in my opinion) is to size the case a little smaller (.002 to .004) than what you are expanding too (final expansion). This will help make the case closer to true / round again (i.e. correct for possible damage on the floor like light stepping on them) without overworking the brass (shortening life of brass). I used my caliper to measure my Remington brass wall thickness at .010. It is very hard to accurately measure the wall thickness. I used my micrometer (more accurate measurement) to measure a loaded round at .335 (T&B bullet mic's at .314 and case was expanded to .314) below the crimp, so my Remington case walls must be .0105. If you load a couple of dummy rounds using new Starline brass and not sizing, I suspect they will mic at .336 since Starline is telling you their brass has a wall thickness of .011.
I also mic'ed some fired brass and they were .338 which indicates to me the chamber on my Pardini is .338
The fired brass will also fit in my 32 ACP case gauge but are a tight fit. I think a .006 (.335) oversized die may work but is a little too large. I think from .003 to .005 oversized will work fine. So if Lee has a sizing between .003 and .005 in stock, go with that as it will be cheaper and you do not need to wait for custom order. If you custom order, I would go with a .004 or .005 oversized.
Hope that helps.
George
You will want to use a CNC clamped toolhead for the sizing and expanding dies. The reason is to better line up the cases for primer insertion on the Dillon 550. A side benefit is the expander die(s) will be closer to true center.
The exact dimensions of your sizing die is not critical since you are using expander dies (you just need to be close). The intent (in my opinion) is to size the case a little smaller (.002 to .004) than what you are expanding too (final expansion). This will help make the case closer to true / round again (i.e. correct for possible damage on the floor like light stepping on them) without overworking the brass (shortening life of brass). I used my caliper to measure my Remington brass wall thickness at .010. It is very hard to accurately measure the wall thickness. I used my micrometer (more accurate measurement) to measure a loaded round at .335 (T&B bullet mic's at .314 and case was expanded to .314) below the crimp, so my Remington case walls must be .0105. If you load a couple of dummy rounds using new Starline brass and not sizing, I suspect they will mic at .336 since Starline is telling you their brass has a wall thickness of .011.
I also mic'ed some fired brass and they were .338 which indicates to me the chamber on my Pardini is .338
The fired brass will also fit in my 32 ACP case gauge but are a tight fit. I think a .006 (.335) oversized die may work but is a little too large. I think from .003 to .005 oversized will work fine. So if Lee has a sizing between .003 and .005 in stock, go with that as it will be cheaper and you do not need to wait for custom order. If you custom order, I would go with a .004 or .005 oversized.
Hope that helps.
George
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
George,
I'm waiting to hear back from Lee w/respect to sizes they now have in stock, asked for .333 / .334. In the final expanded case, how deep is the .318 diameter?
Tom
I'm waiting to hear back from Lee w/respect to sizes they now have in stock, asked for .333 / .334. In the final expanded case, how deep is the .318 diameter?
Tom
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
Tom;
The second tier (.318 portion) of the expander plug goes in the case about 1/16th of an inch deep. Remember, your taper crimp die needs to remove this expansion. I start with a smaller expansion plug and hand screw the expansion die in until it makes contact, then slowly keep screwing the die in until you feel it hit the second tier (you will feel noticeably more resistance). Then screw the die in about another 1/3 of a turn and you should be deep enough. You can test by simply inserting a bullet into the expanded mouth of the case. It should go in about 1/16th of an inch simply by placing the bullet on the case mouth. Once you set the die depth, you should not need to change it when changing plugs. If you go with he cadillac version of three expansion dies in one toolhead, install the expansion plugs in ascending in the three expansion dies and repeat the above process for each expander die. In other words use a new case to set the first expander die, then forward that same case to the next expander die and repeat the process, and then forward the case to the third expander die and repeat the process again. This works because you are increasing the expansion of the case a little in each die. To make the bullet go further into the case will require a very slight amount of pressure once you have expanded to .314.
George
The second tier (.318 portion) of the expander plug goes in the case about 1/16th of an inch deep. Remember, your taper crimp die needs to remove this expansion. I start with a smaller expansion plug and hand screw the expansion die in until it makes contact, then slowly keep screwing the die in until you feel it hit the second tier (you will feel noticeably more resistance). Then screw the die in about another 1/3 of a turn and you should be deep enough. You can test by simply inserting a bullet into the expanded mouth of the case. It should go in about 1/16th of an inch simply by placing the bullet on the case mouth. Once you set the die depth, you should not need to change it when changing plugs. If you go with he cadillac version of three expansion dies in one toolhead, install the expansion plugs in ascending in the three expansion dies and repeat the above process for each expander die. In other words use a new case to set the first expander die, then forward that same case to the next expander die and repeat the process, and then forward the case to the third expander die and repeat the process again. This works because you are increasing the expansion of the case a little in each die. To make the bullet go further into the case will require a very slight amount of pressure once you have expanded to .314.
George
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
I just ordered all the stuff for the Cadillac version. Why not? :-)
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
Check and see what size an FCD is and maybe you can use it for an oversize sizing die. I am sure it is larger than a normal sizing die and it might save you some time and money.
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
Thanks oldcaster. I checked the Lee site and don't see an FCD for 32 auto, only 32 long. They do have a custom option but that would probably cost the same as the sizing die.
If I have to go with a custom size there's a $30.00 grinding charge for a total cost of $59.00. They do stock some oversize dies and the guy I talked to had to physically check to see what's on the shelf. I believe that if they do have the size I need already made it may just be the standard cost of $29.00. I expect to hear back tomorrow.
If I have to go with a custom size there's a $30.00 grinding charge for a total cost of $59.00. They do stock some oversize dies and the guy I talked to had to physically check to see what's on the shelf. I believe that if they do have the size I need already made it may just be the standard cost of $29.00. I expect to hear back tomorrow.
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
As mentioned in another topic on this list, my 62 gr T&B bullets chrono at 915 fps avg with 1.6 gr N 310. I would like to get the velocity down to 775 or so and suspect that I may need to get down to 1.3 - 1.4 gr of N310 to accomplish that. I haven't tested my powder measure for repeatability at these charge weights yet but I know others have had trouble accomplishing this. I recall reading that removing the failsafe rod and replacing it with the old Dillon system that utilizes a spring on the powder bar results in smoother cycling and more uniform charges.
Does anyone have experience with this?
Does anyone have experience with this?
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
The 32 long dies are the same size but just longer. Ask Dave as I seem to remember him saying is was several thousandths larger than stock
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
The NOE expanders appear to be about .125" deep. How are you getting to .25 or so with these?
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
George,
I have the Cadillac version of the tools set up in my press. Do I need to cut the NOE expander plugs down so that just 1/4" or so of the smaller diameter on each die is left. If I try to get the plug down to the point where the + .004 diameter engages I end up with a bulge in the case about 1/2 way up the case wall.
For fired brass the .011 plug has no effect except for the bulge if I try to get the .015 dia to engage. If I set the depth of the .011 so I don't get the bulge and then expand on the 32P (.313-.317) plug I can get the bullet into the case up to the bottom of the grease groove with no bulge. If I run the .314-.318 plug down to where the .318 engages I get the bulge back.
I did run the .314 plug all the way down and ended up with a case that the bullet would fall into, very loose fit.
I have the Cadillac version of the tools set up in my press. Do I need to cut the NOE expander plugs down so that just 1/4" or so of the smaller diameter on each die is left. If I try to get the plug down to the point where the + .004 diameter engages I end up with a bulge in the case about 1/2 way up the case wall.
For fired brass the .011 plug has no effect except for the bulge if I try to get the .015 dia to engage. If I set the depth of the .011 so I don't get the bulge and then expand on the 32P (.313-.317) plug I can get the bullet into the case up to the bottom of the grease groove with no bulge. If I run the .314-.318 plug down to where the .318 engages I get the bulge back.
I did run the .314 plug all the way down and ended up with a case that the bullet would fall into, very loose fit.
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
Should have mentioned that even badly bulged cases fall right into my gauge.
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
I have a set up that works now. I run the .311 expander into the case to just before the .315 dia in the first station, then run the 32P plug in until the .317 dia goes in the case about 3/32" in the second station and then run the .314 plug in about 3/8" in the last station. Bullets seat easily and squarely and there is no bulge in fired cases. The new brass has a very slight bulge but drops right in my gauge.
The difference in length of the smaller diameter on the .311 and .314 plugs (which are rifle expanders) and the .313 (32P pistol expander) is only 1/16" to 3/32" as close as I can measure. That may be enough to cause the case bulging I'm experiencing when I try to form the mouth of the case with these tools. Even though I have something that works now, I'm still tempted to cut these down to see what happens.
The difference in length of the smaller diameter on the .311 and .314 plugs (which are rifle expanders) and the .313 (32P pistol expander) is only 1/16" to 3/32" as close as I can measure. That may be enough to cause the case bulging I'm experiencing when I try to form the mouth of the case with these tools. Even though I have something that works now, I'm still tempted to cut these down to see what happens.
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
tomv;
I have been out of the country the first half of May and have not been checking this forum.
I had my .314 X .318 NOE expander (rifle expander) tapered down before I started using it, so I can't say if it made a difference or not. My thought was without tapering, more of the case would be expanded to .318 and therefore need to have more of a tape crimp to take that out. But again I never verified that.
How have you results at 50 yards been?
Regarding Oldcaster's comment regarding using a 32 S&W Long sizing die. I have found 32 S&W Long bullets to be .313 to .314 in diameter and 32 ACP bullets to be .311 to .312. (But Pardini 32 ACP barrels are .314 and hence need a .314 lead bullet). So it makes sense that a 32 S&W Long sizing die would be a couple of thousandths larger. However, I would ask before buying as some die manufactures may just be using a 32 ACP and calling it good enough.
George
I have been out of the country the first half of May and have not been checking this forum.
I had my .314 X .318 NOE expander (rifle expander) tapered down before I started using it, so I can't say if it made a difference or not. My thought was without tapering, more of the case would be expanded to .318 and therefore need to have more of a tape crimp to take that out. But again I never verified that.
How have you results at 50 yards been?
Regarding Oldcaster's comment regarding using a 32 S&W Long sizing die. I have found 32 S&W Long bullets to be .313 to .314 in diameter and 32 ACP bullets to be .311 to .312. (But Pardini 32 ACP barrels are .314 and hence need a .314 lead bullet). So it makes sense that a 32 S&W Long sizing die would be a couple of thousandths larger. However, I would ask before buying as some die manufactures may just be using a 32 ACP and calling it good enough.
George
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
George,
To clarify what I posted regarding how I'm expanding my cases I'm using the .317 diameter on the 32P die to flare the mouth of the case. I'm only using the .314 diameter on the .314 - .318 die. The bullet seats well and squarely in the .317 dia. case mouth at the seating station. When I tried to use the .318 dia. to flare the case mouth on the last station it resulted in bulged cases.
I haven't had an opportunity to test these rounds for accuracy at 50 yards since I don't normally have access to a range for that purpose except at matches. A friend of mine (Master) shot my Pardini at 50 yards and scored 94/5x and 96/5x on two slowfire strings. I had trouble getting the gun back from him :-). I think I've found a place to rest the gun and get more formal data. I'll let you know what I find.
Tom
To clarify what I posted regarding how I'm expanding my cases I'm using the .317 diameter on the 32P die to flare the mouth of the case. I'm only using the .314 diameter on the .314 - .318 die. The bullet seats well and squarely in the .317 dia. case mouth at the seating station. When I tried to use the .318 dia. to flare the case mouth on the last station it resulted in bulged cases.
I haven't had an opportunity to test these rounds for accuracy at 50 yards since I don't normally have access to a range for that purpose except at matches. A friend of mine (Master) shot my Pardini at 50 yards and scored 94/5x and 96/5x on two slowfire strings. I had trouble getting the gun back from him :-). I think I've found a place to rest the gun and get more formal data. I'll let you know what I find.
Tom
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
Tom;
I am glad to hear things are working for you.
If your friend (master) is shooting 94/5X and 96/5x slow fire with your reloads, they are probably grouping well (inside the 10 ring). Your friend is probably thinking he can make high master with your gun.
Your .314 X .318 expansion plug causing a bulge in the case may be from having the Universal Expansion die seated too deeply. The third step of the NOE expander plug is significantly larger than .318 and has a square lip between .318 and the third step. If you have the Universal Expansion die set too deep the mouth end of the case hits the square lip of the third step of the expander plug, can't expand over it, and bulges the case. I have had this happen to me on my 45 reloads. (I found expanding my 45 reloads to .352 has tightened my groups at 50 yards).
But only expanding the case lip to .317 (what your are doing) may actually be better, and no need to turn down the longer .314 rifle expander plug.
George
I am glad to hear things are working for you.
If your friend (master) is shooting 94/5X and 96/5x slow fire with your reloads, they are probably grouping well (inside the 10 ring). Your friend is probably thinking he can make high master with your gun.
Your .314 X .318 expansion plug causing a bulge in the case may be from having the Universal Expansion die seated too deeply. The third step of the NOE expander plug is significantly larger than .318 and has a square lip between .318 and the third step. If you have the Universal Expansion die set too deep the mouth end of the case hits the square lip of the third step of the expander plug, can't expand over it, and bulges the case. I have had this happen to me on my 45 reloads. (I found expanding my 45 reloads to .352 has tightened my groups at 50 yards).
But only expanding the case lip to .317 (what your are doing) may actually be better, and no need to turn down the longer .314 rifle expander plug.
George
Re: Pardini HP 32, ammo talk
Greetings,
Time to revive this old post.
Went testing yesterday. The goal was to see if the published load data would match my hand load data. Thanks to Hornady for listing data in their #9 book for the 60 grain XTP bullet in the 32 ACP.
Attached is a PDF of my results.
Some notes.
The PardiniUSA barrel is 0.314" groove diameter with a 17.7 twist. The Douglas barrels measure 0.311" groove diameter with 14 twist. The chamber profiles are very similar to each other PardiniUSA/Douglas. All barrels head space on the case mouth.
The Douglas barrels shot higher velocities which I expected. Good news, is the increase is not that significant.
Since I do not have a Pressure Barrel to test undocumented loads, I am at the mercy of the Big Manufacturers to provide safe information.
Bear in mind the variation in powder lots, barrels, and chambers. My chambers are tight and would suggest maximum pressures.
Two loads stood out with regards to accuracy. VV-N310 and AA #2 shot very well in all three barrels. The test targets, fired at 50 yards from a barrel tester, are attached along with a PDF of my Chronograph data.
As you can see, the PardiniUSA barrels shoot very well.
BT2014.03 is the PardiniUSA barrel
BT16202 is Douglas #1
BT16067 is Douglas #2
Cheers,
Dave
Time to revive this old post.
Went testing yesterday. The goal was to see if the published load data would match my hand load data. Thanks to Hornady for listing data in their #9 book for the 60 grain XTP bullet in the 32 ACP.
Attached is a PDF of my results.
Some notes.
The PardiniUSA barrel is 0.314" groove diameter with a 17.7 twist. The Douglas barrels measure 0.311" groove diameter with 14 twist. The chamber profiles are very similar to each other PardiniUSA/Douglas. All barrels head space on the case mouth.
The Douglas barrels shot higher velocities which I expected. Good news, is the increase is not that significant.
Since I do not have a Pressure Barrel to test undocumented loads, I am at the mercy of the Big Manufacturers to provide safe information.
Bear in mind the variation in powder lots, barrels, and chambers. My chambers are tight and would suggest maximum pressures.
Two loads stood out with regards to accuracy. VV-N310 and AA #2 shot very well in all three barrels. The test targets, fired at 50 yards from a barrel tester, are attached along with a PDF of my Chronograph data.
As you can see, the PardiniUSA barrels shoot very well.
BT2014.03 is the PardiniUSA barrel
BT16202 is Douglas #1
BT16067 is Douglas #2
Cheers,
Dave
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