4H & smallbore guns
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
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Citori Girl
4H & smallbore guns
Now that the excitement of the 4H Nationals is dying down, we're ready to start on our next project: smallbore rifle. We have a much better understanding for equipment needs and are in the process of searching for rifles. We have a pretty good 10/22 for the CMP game and will also try it out for silhouette. What we're having difficulty with is the 3P: we have a Remington 512 and 521 that are deadly accurate BUT are lacking in weight. I would like to find a good quality 3P rifle - we've been reviewing the Remington 40X and some Anschutz models - I'd like to see what others have been using in their 4H programs (and if you have any for sale, please PM me!) Thanks!
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2650 Plus
4H equipment race
The anshutz 1903 with almost any of the anschutz competition sights will do most of what you want. If you happen to have the extra money move up to the 1907. You will run into full bore 2013s on the line but by just training properly you can beat them all. The top rifles are usually in the hands of shooters who's fathers have more money and buy the best even though the shooter does not yet have the skills to use the rifle to full potential so it is probably too much of a handicap for them to win with it. Good Shooting Shot gun girl Bill Horton
Again (as always?) I agree with Bill that the 1903 rifles are really nice. If you are CMP affiliated (if not you should be, it costs nothing for a 4-H club) they have good prices thru their distributor, Creedmoor.
I especially like this option for a Mid-end left rifle.
The downside to these rifle are their cost, and if you are like our 4-H program, we do have limited funds.
I started out our smallbore 3-P program with some Izhmash CM-2 rifles. These are "entry level" match rifles of which I am very pleased with.
When we got them in, I mounted a scope on each one and fired it in a 100yd tunnel (windless) and all could shoot under 1.2" with our practice ammo (Wolf Match Target or SK STD Plus).
The downside here is that they are right handed rifles ... stocks can be fired by a lefty, but uncomfortable for them. Also, I ordered the "Cadet", short barreled rifle, and I wish now I had ordered 2 Cadet's and 2 Adults (longer barrel, but heavier). I'm going to knock off the front sights on two of them and get some 10" sight extension tubes and see how my senior shooters like them.
I currently have a borrowed Marlin M-2000 (ambidexterious) rifle that I have my lefty shooters use.
We also have access to some 512's, 513X's(great for the 10 & under crowd), M-12's and 40-X's, but most are not real comfortable 3-P rifles and some are waaaaayyyyyy too heavy for the kids.
If the kids (and parents) are serious about shooting (i.e. they've stuck with it a few years and are maybe thinking of shooting in college) do all you can to keep them from going the 1903 type route. If they are serious, just bite the bullet (look at it as an investment in their education program) and get a good competition rifle. Figure $3K minimum and another $500 for gear. Ouch, but hey, you can always get most of the rifle price back if you sell it. Remember, the 3-P event in 4-H is an "Any Rifle" event and that includes shooting coats, pants, boots, etc. While it runs by NRA rules, it is a basically an Olympic style event.
Also don't forget about ammo (and associated shipping) if you are contemplating the budget. With 4-6 consistent shooters, we're going thru about 5-6 cases (30,000 rds) per year. For us, a good "all around" 22 shell is the SK STD PLUS. It will work for 3-P, CMP sporter rimfire, and silhouette. I usually order a case of Eley Black for our 50 meter and state silhouette matches, but the STD PLUS is always good for the CMP event.
Just remember the shooters will fire more shots smallbore than they do in a comparable air rifle match. I figure on average a box and a half for every 3x10 they fire as I make sure that they all fire at least 5 barrel warming shots in each position before they even think of sighters. (so on a day when I have them fire a 3x20, each gets 3 boxes of shells --- 60 records, 15 warmups, and maybe 30 sighters = 105 rounds).
Sometimes I'll only get 15 rounds back from the kids as the smallbore sighting in seems to consume more shots with borrowed rifles than does a set of borrowed air rifles.
I especially like this option for a Mid-end left rifle.
The downside to these rifle are their cost, and if you are like our 4-H program, we do have limited funds.
I started out our smallbore 3-P program with some Izhmash CM-2 rifles. These are "entry level" match rifles of which I am very pleased with.
When we got them in, I mounted a scope on each one and fired it in a 100yd tunnel (windless) and all could shoot under 1.2" with our practice ammo (Wolf Match Target or SK STD Plus).
The downside here is that they are right handed rifles ... stocks can be fired by a lefty, but uncomfortable for them. Also, I ordered the "Cadet", short barreled rifle, and I wish now I had ordered 2 Cadet's and 2 Adults (longer barrel, but heavier). I'm going to knock off the front sights on two of them and get some 10" sight extension tubes and see how my senior shooters like them.
I currently have a borrowed Marlin M-2000 (ambidexterious) rifle that I have my lefty shooters use.
We also have access to some 512's, 513X's(great for the 10 & under crowd), M-12's and 40-X's, but most are not real comfortable 3-P rifles and some are waaaaayyyyyy too heavy for the kids.
If the kids (and parents) are serious about shooting (i.e. they've stuck with it a few years and are maybe thinking of shooting in college) do all you can to keep them from going the 1903 type route. If they are serious, just bite the bullet (look at it as an investment in their education program) and get a good competition rifle. Figure $3K minimum and another $500 for gear. Ouch, but hey, you can always get most of the rifle price back if you sell it. Remember, the 3-P event in 4-H is an "Any Rifle" event and that includes shooting coats, pants, boots, etc. While it runs by NRA rules, it is a basically an Olympic style event.
Also don't forget about ammo (and associated shipping) if you are contemplating the budget. With 4-6 consistent shooters, we're going thru about 5-6 cases (30,000 rds) per year. For us, a good "all around" 22 shell is the SK STD PLUS. It will work for 3-P, CMP sporter rimfire, and silhouette. I usually order a case of Eley Black for our 50 meter and state silhouette matches, but the STD PLUS is always good for the CMP event.
Just remember the shooters will fire more shots smallbore than they do in a comparable air rifle match. I figure on average a box and a half for every 3x10 they fire as I make sure that they all fire at least 5 barrel warming shots in each position before they even think of sighters. (so on a day when I have them fire a 3x20, each gets 3 boxes of shells --- 60 records, 15 warmups, and maybe 30 sighters = 105 rounds).
Sometimes I'll only get 15 rounds back from the kids as the smallbore sighting in seems to consume more shots with borrowed rifles than does a set of borrowed air rifles.
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
Hi JHM,jhmartin wrote: . . . . . I figure on average a box and a half for every 3x10 they fire as I make sure that they all fire at least 5 barrel warming shots in each position before they even think of sighters. (so on a day when I have them fire a 3x20, each gets 3 boxes of shells --- 60 records, 15 warmups, and maybe 30 sighters = 105 rounds).
Sometimes I'll only get 15 rounds back from the kids as the smallbore sighting in seems to consume more shots with borrowed rifles than does a set of borrowed air rifles.
I would never recommend 5 barrel warming shots--unless I was the ammo factory. I used to shoot outdoor prone and could not see an impact change at 100 yds. even after cleaning my rifle after every 40-shot match and printing the first round. I don't think it is wise to plant the thought in a new shooter's head that it could have been the rifle flipping that 7 out there because it wasn't "warmed" properly. Even my original Win. 52C barrel did not send fliers with good ammo.
Regards,
Ben
Hmmm ... dunno .... maybe it's just a preference. We shoot a lot of sporter type barrels ... maybe a mental thing too.
I have the shooters clean the guns before they put them away, every time, so I seem to really see a difference until a few shots have gone down the bore.
(Even here in NM, especially in the "monsoon" season, we get rust)
Our 4-H state shoot is in late Apr-early May at Whittington (6600ft) and in the past 4 years we've never started the 3-P match at a temp above freezing. Three years ago the kids were firing thru freezing rain .... I'm convinced there. We also use a Gehman Chamber flag (plug) to keep the wind (water) out (some) between changeovers.
The warmups are off the targets, or in the case of the A-36 or USA-50's, in between the sighter bulls
But, like I said, maybe it's just what I've been taught. We also have a fantastic State Friends of NRA committee here in NM that really supports the youth programs. We shoot very affordable ammo, SK STD Plus, Eley Target Rifle, and some Eley Black EPS .... Now if we were exclusively firing Red EPS ....
I have the shooters clean the guns before they put them away, every time, so I seem to really see a difference until a few shots have gone down the bore.
(Even here in NM, especially in the "monsoon" season, we get rust)
Our 4-H state shoot is in late Apr-early May at Whittington (6600ft) and in the past 4 years we've never started the 3-P match at a temp above freezing. Three years ago the kids were firing thru freezing rain .... I'm convinced there. We also use a Gehman Chamber flag (plug) to keep the wind (water) out (some) between changeovers.
The warmups are off the targets, or in the case of the A-36 or USA-50's, in between the sighter bulls
But, like I said, maybe it's just what I've been taught. We also have a fantastic State Friends of NRA committee here in NM that really supports the youth programs. We shoot very affordable ammo, SK STD Plus, Eley Target Rifle, and some Eley Black EPS .... Now if we were exclusively firing Red EPS ....
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Ten Bar Ranch
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:06 am
Has anyone been using the smallbore ammo available through CMP? I ordered a case to try in practice. The price is right. I had read somewhere, on another forum possibly, that it shoots comparable or slightly better that the Wolf Match. This was from both pistol and rifle shooters. Any thoughts?
Tracey
Tracey