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master z
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Looking for answers.

Post by master z »

Let me point out - I have a great amount of respect for the coaching and managing team working at US Shooting. They are great champions and dedicated people. But in my opinion, their professional past and good will sometimes contradicts with the decisions being made.
Why is the Olympic air selection half a year before the Games?
I can mention at least 10 reasons why that is so dramatically wrong. It is the perfect example of common sense and professional expertise both being ignored at the same time. The only argument I have heard in defense of the early date is that it will be too long to shoot 6 days in a row in May.
First - I think we need to determine what the most important criteria is. I happen to believe that it is the performance at the Olympics. If you agree with that, then May is clearly the better choice, although still not as good as June or July (Nationals is the most reasonable time for tryouts, in my opinion) .
Second - Convenience of traveling. For the majority of us not financially supported by US Shooting or Army, one trip is better than two. At least 800 dollars better in my case. Free Pistol selection matches start on Tuesday and end on Thursday with training on Monday. That's already a full week off of work! Why not shoot both guns then?
Men's Air Pistol matches are at 2:30 in the afternoon? The argument for it is that it has happened at international competitions that we have to shoot that late. I Agree. But the same applies to rifle!
Why do we continue to alienate conventional shooters? The 2008 USAS Nationals are a month later than the past several years and over the 4th of July weekend. This is the same weekend as the Canton Regional (warm up for Camp Perry) and the start of Camp Perry (NRA National Matches in Ohio).
3X's air match program states:
“This match will count towards Performance Standard Average (PSA) and Individual Performance Scores (PSI). Performance Standard Average / Individual score, as established by USA Shooting, must be achieved before any athlete may travel with the US Shooting Team to selected competitions outside the United States”.
No shooters attained the required PSA/PSI at the 3X's air,
Yet, 3 Air Pistol Shooters represented the USA at Bavarian Airgun Match.
So, if you happen to know answers, please be kind and share them with me.
Steve Swartz

Post by Steve Swartz »

You are absolutely correct on all counts.

From the standpoint of "peak management" alone, the final selections should be made as close to the travel departure date as possible.

The selections should also involve a series of matches over time (at least a full week).

The exact nature of the selection process is of course "arguable" in that many could disagree over the details.

However, it appears that there may be considerations at work that are more important than selecting the "best" [most likely to perform well during the olympics] athletes to represent the United States.

Two obvious examples would be "equity" or "fairness" and of course budget considerations.

Steve
Steve Swartz

Post by Steve Swartz »

Sorry, one more "big picture" thing-

ON THE OTHER HAND

Until we actually have a "critical mass" of world class shoooters, your points (while technically correct) don't really matter.

Let's be practical.

Let's just look at the case of one discipline.

If you have 2 slots, and only 2 shooters with a chance in H**l of going, what is the use of holding an expensive, complicated selection process?

Let's expand it to 3 disciplines (MAP, FP, RP). If you have 6 slots, and a selection matrix that includes the likelihood of "duplicates" (especially in FP and MAP; not so much RP), do you really have "6+X" candidates?

I'm trying to be realistic- maybe even playing Devil's Advocate a little bit- but what is the likelihood that Joe Unknown Shooter will ride in out of the sunset to secure a spot?

Not bloody likely.

The USAS may be a lot of things, but they pretty much already know everybody at the elite, near elite, and "wannabe" level. If not personally, at least by PTO score and reputation.

So there you have it.

On the other hand, yes, a more meaningful and rigorous selection process is Definitely A Good Thing. But today, right now, for Beijing, I'm not sure it's needed.

And OK, I admit it- since I won't be ready in time I am already focusing on London 2012 thank you very much.

So my opinion in this matter is worth less than the usual -0- it is worth.

This is not sour grapes at all. If you aren't already able to shoot 580 MAP and 560 FP on demand, any day, any time, at a moment's notice . . . March, May, July ain't going to matter much one way or the other.

I have some people who I would like to consider if not good friends than at least respected colleagues who are probably going to be hurt by the early selection (as I will be). To them, personally, I apologize for my callous attitude.

To those who are "Ready To Go" in March, I certainly wish them the best and trust they will manage their peak performance to do very well in Beijing. Fingers crossed and candles lit!

Steve
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Post by Guest »

From the qualification letter

• Team can be expanded at coach’s discretion

Would it be better if no one traveled in an Olympic year??
Dan Ide
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selection

Post by Dan Ide »

One item that I did not see mentioned is the need for a shooter to have fired the minimum qualifing score at a world cup or better. This need alone rules out a last minute hot shot making the team. I shot mine in Rio in 1989, no I did not make the final cut, Doc Young went. At that time PQS was 570 in Airpistol
sparky
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Post by sparky »

Steve Swartz wrote: <snip>
The USAS may be a lot of things, but they pretty much already know everybody at the elite, near elite, and "wannabe" level. If not personally, at least by PTO score and reputation.
<snip>

Steve
Playing devil's advocate, that's the big problem with USA Shooting. They know because so few people shoot ISSF disciplines in the US and the number is declining. USA Shooting makes minimal effort to build a grassroots base for ISSF shooting they only focus on the folks on the olympic team and virtually nothing else. The few PTO matches around are few and far between. Frankly, most folks aren't willing to spend a lot of money on an expensive shooting discipline when there aren't any matches to shoot once you graduate from college.
If I hadn't picked up an air pistol and a Toz for cheap, I probably would be long gone from this board.
If USA Shooting did more to build up a grassroots base ala NRA bullseye, USPSA, or IDPA, ISSF shooting might be more popular.

Heck, the Olympics are no longer just for amateurs. maybe USA Shooting should consider offering cash and/or product prizes at matches.
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pilkguns
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Post by pilkguns »

Sparky, I hate to disagree with you but USAS is doing a lot in recent years to develop grassroots pistol shooting. The Progressive Pistol program is building, over 140 kids shot at last years championships in Bowling Gree, they had 50 at the first three years ago. They have brought in 300 of the Tau7 Jrs, that were sold at cost pricng to get clubs going.. oh and those guns were specially made for USAS in the lighter/shorter/cheaper category. USAS has also been working for several years to bring a similar priced Compressed air pistol to the market that maybe will see the late of day in the next few months.

Training? In 2007 I was personally involved in 2 coach training programs led by USAS to train pistols coaches for local programs. One in Oklahoma and one in Alabama. I believe there were others.

Did USAS finally shorten its nationals schedule to make it easier for pistol shooters to attend? Yep, I believe they did. Did it have a big impact on numbers? some but not as much as was expected/hoped for.

Cash and Prizes? Hello......Apparently you have you not attended the last three years USASNC or been a member of USAS or NRA during this time. I seem to recall someone in conjunction with USAS giving out $7000 in cash and prizes, mostly weighted toward the pistol side to hopefully draw the Bullseye crowd into our sport. Advertisements were ran in the NRA and USAS publications to announce this. Has it been sucessful? again not as much as was expected or hoped for. Its a much harder sport to shoot than Bullseye. It takes a lot more commitment to be succesful. Both in physical training , mental attitude on the line and off. You shoot a .45 or a 9mm, you are the man... You shoot a air pistol or funny looking Free Pistol? most shooters and non shooters alike look at you like you have warts for a mustache. As one of my friends on the All-Guard team told me one time. I can go out drink all night, never exercise and still be on the awards stand at Camp Perry. I can't break 80% doing that internationl. and IPSC or IDPA, 95% can't hold the black on a 10m AP target with two hands and they cannot hold the white with one hand. This is from sponsoring the AirStrike event at the Bianchi Cup the last five years.

Certainly USAS is aware of the problem and doing as much as they can think of given their resources. Do we see an impact on the Olympic Team this year? probably not, Do we see one in 2012? well we will have to wait and see.

regards,
Scott
Last edited by pilkguns on Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Richard H
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Post by Richard H »

It easy to complain, I do that about our NGB up here in Canada, but the big thing is ask yourself "what have you done for the sport". Just sending some cash in for a membership and shooting in a couple of matches really isn't enough.
Last edited by Richard H on Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pilkguns
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Post by pilkguns »

you tell'em Shrek
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Post by Guest »

Informal hunter/plinker for 40 years. No organized participation in shooting events since boy's camp in late 60's early 70's!

Fast forward to 2004. Stumbled on Target Talk and Bullseye-L quite by accident. Thanks, Scott! Found a local Bullseye league and some matches.

I'm 50. Can't tell you how many times I've sworn at myself for not knowing about the competitive pistol programs (both Bullseye and International) 30 years ago. Really want to try Free Pistol and Rapid Fire but probably never will at this point.

The US competitive pistol programs seem really complicated, convoluted, and veiled in secrecy to the average recreational shooter. I've been involved in hunting and plinking for 35+ years and never knew any of it existed. I live in a city of over a million and was in the dark all these years. I dream about what I could have accomplished in the competitive arena over the last 30 years, if only I had know about it!

I think the Progressive Pistol Program is an excellent idea. Obviously Scott Pilkington does a superb job getting the word out about this and all other forms of competitive programs - thanks again, Scott!

Maybe more stupid things like AP contests at State Fairs or similar might work to attract widespread interest. I think a hands-on demo (if possible) of Rapid and Free Pistol at the National Matches might attract some serious US shooters to these disciplines.

Generally I think there needs to be a stronger foundation so the the selection process actually matters to a greater number of people!
master z
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looking for answers.

Post by master z »

-“ask yourself ‘what have you done for the sport’. Just sending some cash in for a membership and shooting in a couple of matches really isn't enough”. (Richard H)
Here in NY we have a lot of posters around –“See something - Say something!”
I believe that is exactly my job – pay my membership, participate in competitions and express my point of view. What else would you like me to do? Send guns to people in need?
Since we have paid professionals in charge we should expect them to make decisions beneficial for the sport we are all in love with (in my case for 38 years).
I know from personal experience what a hard task that is! I’m 100% with you Scott on the issues you touched in your reply.
Do I think they are great people – YES. (Sergei is my very good friend and I mentioned that in the hope that he won’t kill me over that letter).
Do I think they are trying really hard – YES.
Do I agree with all the decisions being made – NO. NO. NO.
WE SHOULD NOT HAVE SELECTIONS IN MARCH! Right now we do not have (in AP) any shooter capable of competing at the world level. The average score for the top 3 – 576-577 – which is very far from finals at ANY international competitions.
So why not to wait and give a chance to the guys who are progressing steadily (Beaman, Gray) or very talented juniors (Owsley, Lutz) or older folks like (Zurek, Lange)?
Why not use FIVE extra months?
Even if we have a leader - everybody swims faster with a shark in the water.
Why do you want to remove the competitive edge?
You all agree that we should not ignore bullseye shooters!
Why is Fort Benning same time as Camp Perry?
I want to see mistakes being recognized and addressed!
Steve is right (unfortunately) – our opinion is absolutely irrelevant, since the amount of people it personally affects is very limited.
Unless all of us take national pride personally!
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Richard H
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Re: looking for answers.

Post by Richard H »

master z wrote:Here in NY we have a lot of posters around –“See something - Say something!”
I believe that is exactly my job – pay my membership, participate in competitions and express my point of view. What else would you like me to do? Send guns to people in need?
No but have you talked to non shooters about shooting, have you taken any non shooters to your club to let them try the sport. There are lots of things that the individuals can do to grow the sport too.
master z wrote: Since we have paid professionals in charge we should expect them to make decisions beneficial for the sport we are all in love with (in my case for 38 years).
That's fine you have a handful of paid professionals, do you really think a handful of paid professionals (the USAS is not a giant organization by any means) is going to grow the sport? Especially in a country that for the most part is totally ignorant of the international shooting disciplines and is becoming more and more firearm phobic as time goes on.

Bitching and whining will change things, it seems to be doing well for everything else.
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Post by jhmartin »

That's fine you have a handful of paid professionals, do you really think a handful of paid professionals (the USAS is not a giant organization by any means) is going to grow the sport?
From my perspective USAS is not going to ever have a major part in >>GROWING<< the sport .... they are there to take what has come out of the various development programs and do what they can to move them into the world stage.

GROWING the sport must begin at the grassroots level (at least in the US)

It is sad to see so little involvement of experienced shooters at the youth level (make it known ... I ain't one ... I come out of a competitive swimming background, love to shoot, my kids were interested, so I'm learning as much as I can to pass along)

If the folks here want to see the sport grow, they will have to make time, personally, to gather a "flock" and move them along. We can count on the USAS, CMP and NRA to host major competitions, but this sport >>WILL<< live or die on the local level.

Sure, I'd like to see unlimited money spent in every location for every interested party, but it can never happen (nor should it), so don't expect it.
If we look now and back at successful shooters, they most probably come out of programs (grassroots level) where there was a program of sacrifice and commitment on the part of some who want to bring the sport along.

To those of us that now "have a life after school" .... if you shoot, like to shoot, have experience shooting ... get with a local club (you may have to start one) ... and bring some kids along ... will it be easy, heck no, you'll invest time, emotions ... most probably some of your own money ... you'll probably miss some of your favorite games and shows on TV, miss mowing the lawn on a few weekends, but you'll be part of creating the future
master z
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Post by master z »

It seems that English is a foreign language not just for me.
How about this example - I boarded the train that should be going north and then found that the conductor decided to go south. I’m saying we need to talk to the train conductor about a direction. You’re saying let’s attach more carts to the train. Nowhere in my letter had I asked the question how to increase the number of people interested in Olympic style shooting! Not because I’m not interested – but because it’s a completely different issue.
And no, Richard, bitching and expressing professional opinion are not the same.
I know it’s hard to believe, but coaching is a profession, which is why I spent 8 years in State Academy of Physical Science (Moscow) to get my degree in Pistol Shooting.
And on the subject of who is doing what to support the shooting sport – I’m doing what I know best – coaching current and future USA, Europe, World and Olympic champions. Most of them happen to be Russians (B.Kokorev, M.Nestruev, A.Danilov, V.Isakov). But not because they are better ! We have extremely talented shooters here – Szarenski, Turner, Zurek, Beaman, Lange, Gray, Swartz, Budnella, Owsley, Lutz! This is only a partial list! Each of these guys has enough talent to be an Olympic champion. What we are lacking here is the support of society. I’m happy to have a chance to practice with, or be a coach or consultant to at least 80% of all European, World and Olympic champions (in AP and FP) in the last 30+ years. None of them had a day job! In Russia (for example) shooting is a very well paid job (at the age 18 my salary was bigger than my parents combined) and a greatly respected one.
But again – this matter is for a different topic, not the one I tried to start.
The attitude is another subject! Serving as assistant national coach I got in trouble for insisting that a member of the team will perform dry fire before the match. During shooting camps for the national team I witnessed members refuse to do certain drills (because they do not see how that will improve the result) or leave the range in the middle of the practice (tired or bored).
I have friends who are perfectly qualified to give shooting lessons to kids, but refuse to do so in fear of “hurting feelings with unwanted comments” and as a result being sued for that.
I’m the head pistol coach at Merchant Marine Academy, which means that I have kids in the range from all over the country and almost all of them have the same problem – they don’t like to hear that not everything they do is perfect.
But if we are not ready to face reality, to recognize challenges, and most importantly have a will to improve - we are not going anywhere.
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Richard H
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Post by Richard H »

Well tact isn't your strong suit, maybe that's why you have problems getting athletes to listen to you.

If you read I think the responses with regards to growing the sport stem from the comments made by Steve.
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Post by pilkguns »

Richard H wrote:Well tact isn't your strong suit,
LOL I can think of more than a few folks on this board and elswhere who might say the same of a certain Canadian team assistant coach
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Richard H
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Post by Richard H »

Yea I can see that from time to time too ;)
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Post by Mike M. »

Hold on! Everybody knows that for a shooter, tact is defined as not shooting the person you are speaking to. :-)

On a more serious note, I can see arguments on both sides. And as a board member for the U.S. International Muzzle-Loading Team, I may have some insights into the problems.

One issue is the paperwork. I'll grant that it IS the Olympics, but a lot of these foreign countries require 3-4 months to get the papers in order to bring the guns into the country.

Another is the vacation time. Remember Bill Demarest? He had to come home early from Sydney...because he had no more vacation time. Except for the AMU shooters, most of us have jobs - and very limited vacation. Knowing that you are going well in advance allows a competitor to get his vacation schedule in order. FWIW, this is one of the big issues for the USIMLT.

And dominating the whole issue is the simple fact that there are not that many top-flight shooters to choose from...and everybody knows what the pecking order is. As has been observed, somebody is not going to come riding in out of the blue to pick up an Olympic slot at the last second. At best, you are picking from a field of a half-dozen or so.

Now, that being said, I agree that doing the selections in march is not be "right" solution. Nationals would be far better, if for no other reason than to let the newly selected Olympic competitors bask in the glory of the thing. And to pick the competitors at the crest of their abilities.

Remember, things could be MUCH worse. The USIMLT selection match for the 2008 World Championship was in 2007...because every one of us will be paying about $4,000 out of pocket for that trip, and the paperwork to get into and out of Australia is daunting.
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Post by Spencer »

Off ISSF topic, but -

There is a BP world Championship in Australia this year???
I am a BP pistol shooter in Australia and this is the first I have heard of it!

While related to MLAIC, maybe this is one of the symptoms.

Spencer
David Levene
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Post by David Levene »

Spencer wrote:There is a BP world Championship in Australia this year???
I am a BP pistol shooter in Australia and this is the first I have heard of it!

While related to MLAIC, maybe this is one of the symptoms.
According to the MLAIC web site it's 8-17 August in Adelaide.
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