surprised that this hasn't been discussed yet. For those who didn't know, there was another school shooting at Northern Illinois University.
story
with elections coming up, I wanted to know how people think this tragedy will effect both shooting sports and gun control overall. As a collegiate shooter, I'm a little nervous myself.
NIU Shooting
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
It's been on the news but how significant is it really ? There are umpteen gun crimes (and killings) all the time, and even more that are not gun related.
Yes there has been a shooting in a school, but why should that affect shooting sports ? The only thing I would have thought might be acheiveable is to have metal detectors into every school. That may be feasible, but probably way to expensive unless it were deemed a real vote winner.
Rob.
Yes there has been a shooting in a school, but why should that affect shooting sports ? The only thing I would have thought might be acheiveable is to have metal detectors into every school. That may be feasible, but probably way to expensive unless it were deemed a real vote winner.
Rob.
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Steve Swartz
Well, maybe Scott needs to add another section on the site for "Political" issues; as these discussions do come up at times.
Rob- I see the logic in what you are saying (metal detectors).
We have some fairly reasonable people over here saying that we need more armed police on college campii.
Facts are "stubborn things" though.
Metal detectors, fences, etc.: we have had shootings IN PRISONS and COURTHOUSES and FEDERAL OFFICE BUILDINGS for cryin out loud. Metal detectors and fences can be defeated. Note above that in most cases we aren't talking about "trained, dedicated" terrorists either. The incidents are perpetrated by Joe Crazy without any particular skills or training.
Armed Police: In every classroom? [more on that in a moment] The response times typically for law enforcement run into the "minutes" as opposed to "seconds" time frame. Even for Joe Crazy with a couple of black powder guns that means he can pretty much kill as many people as he wants. A trained terrorist? Order of magnitude higher. So apparently, we need "good people with guns" to be available and present in any venue where a number of potential victims would gather. Schools. Sporting events. Shopping centers. Office buildings. Hospitals. Churches.
They can be armed, trained, government employees- or armed, trained citizens.
So
We are left with the fundamental question: Does Leviathan assume responsibility for our safety, or do we take responsibility ourselves?
Last school shooting the "allow people with CCL to carry on campus" movement actually got some traction in some states. Let's see what happens this time.
Steve
Rob- I see the logic in what you are saying (metal detectors).
We have some fairly reasonable people over here saying that we need more armed police on college campii.
Facts are "stubborn things" though.
Metal detectors, fences, etc.: we have had shootings IN PRISONS and COURTHOUSES and FEDERAL OFFICE BUILDINGS for cryin out loud. Metal detectors and fences can be defeated. Note above that in most cases we aren't talking about "trained, dedicated" terrorists either. The incidents are perpetrated by Joe Crazy without any particular skills or training.
Armed Police: In every classroom? [more on that in a moment] The response times typically for law enforcement run into the "minutes" as opposed to "seconds" time frame. Even for Joe Crazy with a couple of black powder guns that means he can pretty much kill as many people as he wants. A trained terrorist? Order of magnitude higher. So apparently, we need "good people with guns" to be available and present in any venue where a number of potential victims would gather. Schools. Sporting events. Shopping centers. Office buildings. Hospitals. Churches.
They can be armed, trained, government employees- or armed, trained citizens.
So
We are left with the fundamental question: Does Leviathan assume responsibility for our safety, or do we take responsibility ourselves?
Last school shooting the "allow people with CCL to carry on campus" movement actually got some traction in some states. Let's see what happens this time.
Steve
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Telecomtodd
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- Location: Saint Charles, MO
Hard to believe that I was allowed to bring my rifle to school one day (in 1981) because my friend and I had to get picked early up by our coach to go shoot at an out-of-state championship. We were less concerned about people knowing we brought our rifles to school (with permission of course), but more concerned about other guys getting into our stuff and doing really bad things - like messing up our sights. Times have changed.
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Guest
Apparently the shooter was a former graduate student in Sociology. I think we need to ban graduate students in Sociology. Undergraduates too. Give 'em a spatula and let them do something productive.
Seriously though, this is going to further polarize the debate. More people will realize that "gun free zone" rules are worse-than-useless, while others will argue for yet more restrictions. The center is getting smaller and smaller (in all aspects of American political life).
Seriously though, this is going to further polarize the debate. More people will realize that "gun free zone" rules are worse-than-useless, while others will argue for yet more restrictions. The center is getting smaller and smaller (in all aspects of American political life).
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gordonfriesen
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:31 pm
The only downside to armed citizens in a case like this is the chance that one will be shot by mistake... by another.
But that risk is acceptable.
Training is the key though. Having a gun in your pocket does not mean you are ready for an emergency. In my city a few years back, two armed robbers in a supermarket were overcome by three brothers, aged fifteen,
sixteen and eighteen. They were not armed. They had no links to the store. They had no weapons, but they didn't hesitate to act.
Why?
They had immigrated from Lebennon barely thre months before. Collective experience had taught them straight forward reflexes concerning the approprioate behavior when a gun appears in public.
It would be nice if our people could learn that lesson without the experience. But the fact is those experiences are beginning to mount up.
But that risk is acceptable.
Training is the key though. Having a gun in your pocket does not mean you are ready for an emergency. In my city a few years back, two armed robbers in a supermarket were overcome by three brothers, aged fifteen,
sixteen and eighteen. They were not armed. They had no links to the store. They had no weapons, but they didn't hesitate to act.
Why?
They had immigrated from Lebennon barely thre months before. Collective experience had taught them straight forward reflexes concerning the approprioate behavior when a gun appears in public.
It would be nice if our people could learn that lesson without the experience. But the fact is those experiences are beginning to mount up.
If you're referring to the VA Tech, it's probably because someone had discussed the very scenario that happened a year prior to the shooting and had publicly in the local paper asked the school to change its rules to allow concealed carry permit holders to carry on school grounds. Of course, the school refused. Fast forward a year and you have the worst mass killing spree in U.S. history.Steve Swartz wrote: <snip>
Last school shooting the "allow people with CCL to carry on campus" movement actually got some traction in some states. Let's see what happens this time.
Steve
niu...
Well, at first thought, it should have little to do with us competitive shooters, but I think seemehaha has a valid concern.
Here in Illinois, politicians and the state gov't are rabidly anti- gun. Unfortunately, anything even remotely connected with fireams that can be seen in a negative light may be used against us. You can count on the NIU shooting to be used in the anti- gun arguments in March at our capitol.
BTW, Illinois is one of only 2 states in the country that do not have any concealed carry law of any kind. That gives a clue as to what we flatlanders are up against...
My .02
Here in Illinois, politicians and the state gov't are rabidly anti- gun. Unfortunately, anything even remotely connected with fireams that can be seen in a negative light may be used against us. You can count on the NIU shooting to be used in the anti- gun arguments in March at our capitol.
BTW, Illinois is one of only 2 states in the country that do not have any concealed carry law of any kind. That gives a clue as to what we flatlanders are up against...
My .02
After all these shooting the anti gun groups start yelling more gun control. Unfortunatly, their solutions will affect all of us as their goal is to remove ALL guns from private ownership. We as target shooters should not ever think that we are safe from the gun grabbers. I have also noticed that the reports have stated that many time the victims stood and watched the shooter reload before resuming the assault. It seems to me that people in this country have become so used to being taken care of, that they are not willing to fight back even in the face of death. How many lives could have been saved if the victims turned into assailants against the shooter?
Now back to target shooting topics
Jim Holtman
Now back to target shooting topics
Jim Holtman
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Jose Rossy
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- Location: Troy, Ohio, USA
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Jose Rossy
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- Location: Troy, Ohio, USA
Jim, that is precisely the mentality that socialism tries so hard to foster. To turn free thinking and free acting citizens into pre-programmed drones that will unquestioningly obey authority and to only give authority the tools to defend life.jholtman wrote:
It seems to me that people in this country have become so used to being taken care of, that they are not willing to fight back even in the face of death.
The word sheeple has never fit better.
