There is a match director in our area that has taken a position that in International Air Rifle with 10 bull paper targets, you only can shoot sighter bulls at the beginning of the match. Sighters are not allowed after target change for the 2nd or 3rd stage. This is argued that with electronic or target rolls the rule applies since there is not an interuption in the course of fire. However, when the shooter must stop for a target change this causes the shooter to have a break in the course of fire. The USAS rule book is somewhat unclear on paper targets.
What do you all think?
Jim Holtman
Number of sighter bulls in Int. air rifle
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
I would think this would apply, guessing you shoot two targets, (20 shots) and then change targets, should also apply if you shoot 10 and change.
7.6.5.2 If a shooter is interrupted for more than five (5) minutes, or moved to another firing point, he may have additional unlimited sighting shots at one sighting target at the beginning of his remaining shooting time together with any time extension granted plus an additional five (5) minutes. If automatic paper target systems which have no possibility for providing a new sighting target are in use, the sighting shots should be fired on the next unused competition target. Two (2) competition shots should be fired at the next competition target according to the instructions given by the Range officials or Jury Members. Range officials or Jury Members must ensure that a complete explanation is recorded on the score sheet.
7.6.5.2 If a shooter is interrupted for more than five (5) minutes, or moved to another firing point, he may have additional unlimited sighting shots at one sighting target at the beginning of his remaining shooting time together with any time extension granted plus an additional five (5) minutes. If automatic paper target systems which have no possibility for providing a new sighting target are in use, the sighting shots should be fired on the next unused competition target. Two (2) competition shots should be fired at the next competition target according to the instructions given by the Range officials or Jury Members. Range officials or Jury Members must ensure that a complete explanation is recorded on the score sheet.
Don't know about pistol rules, but this is specifically written for rifle and no mention made of any conditions. When you have to wait for a target change etc you usually go way beyond the 5 min mark. This RO needs to re read the rule as it applies to rifle and forget what ever happens in pistol. Most of us do not have electronic targets and thus the need for target changes. and more sighters at each target change.
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bellyshooter
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:32 pm
- Location: Rhode Island
Sighter Shots after target change
If the guy has made up his mind, he's probably not going to believe your interpretation (even though you're right). I'd suggest that you contact USAS Competitions and have them send you a rule interpretation on letterhead.
Guess pistol shooters also have the same thing, from tthe pistol book
8.6.5.1.3 If a shooter is interrupted for more than five (5) minutes, or moved to another firing point, he may have additional unlimited sighting shots at one sighting target at the beginning of his remaining shooting time together with any time extension granted plus an additional five (5) minutes. If automatic paper target systems which have no possibility for providing a new sighting target are in use, the sighting shots should be fired on the next unused competition target. For 10 m the next two (2) competition shots should be fired at the following target; for 50 m the appropriate number of shots should be fired at the next competition target according to the instructions given by the Range officials or Jury Members. Range officials or Jury Members must ensure that a complete explanation is recorded on the score sheet.
8.6.5.1.3 If a shooter is interrupted for more than five (5) minutes, or moved to another firing point, he may have additional unlimited sighting shots at one sighting target at the beginning of his remaining shooting time together with any time extension granted plus an additional five (5) minutes. If automatic paper target systems which have no possibility for providing a new sighting target are in use, the sighting shots should be fired on the next unused competition target. For 10 m the next two (2) competition shots should be fired at the following target; for 50 m the appropriate number of shots should be fired at the next competition target according to the instructions given by the Range officials or Jury Members. Range officials or Jury Members must ensure that a complete explanation is recorded on the score sheet.
Agree with the others .... a target change is more than 5 min and unlimited sighters are allowed in the following stage.
What goes in pistol has nothing to do with INT'L rifle.
Unfortunatley the only way to probably rectify this situation is to file a WRITTEN protest of match conditions, precisely following the rules for protest.
Make sure you have the most current rule book too.....
Then it is run by the Jury .... if they are as clueless as the Mtch Director, then have it sent to the NGB .... that will straighten it out.
Was this a USAS, NRA or CMP sanctioned match? ... (In this timeframe of the year I suspect an NRA sectional .... if so get on the horn to HQ Moody at NRA and have him give the Match Director a personal phone call)
What goes in pistol has nothing to do with INT'L rifle.
Unfortunatley the only way to probably rectify this situation is to file a WRITTEN protest of match conditions, precisely following the rules for protest.
Make sure you have the most current rule book too.....
Then it is run by the Jury .... if they are as clueless as the Mtch Director, then have it sent to the NGB .... that will straighten it out.
Was this a USAS, NRA or CMP sanctioned match? ... (In this timeframe of the year I suspect an NRA sectional .... if so get on the horn to HQ Moody at NRA and have him give the Match Director a personal phone call)
You know .... I've pulled up the USAS rules and see how this could be confusing....
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7.6.4.4.1 Sighting shots (unlimited in number) may be fired only before the beginning of each competition or position. Once the first competition shot has been fired, no further sighting shots are allowed unless permitted by the Jury in accordance with these Rules. Any further sighting shot(s) fired in contravention of this rule must be scored as miss(es) in the competition.
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Now this, initially would seem to support the Match director, execpt for the "unless by the Jury in accordance with these rules"
So you have to continue to look for:
====================
7.6.5.2 If a shooter is interrupted for more than five (5) minutes, or moved to another firing point, he may have additional unlimited sighting shots at one sighting target at the beginning of his remaining shooting time together with any time extension granted plus an additional five (5) minutes. If automatic paper target systems which have no possibility for providing a new sighting target are in use, the sighting shots should be fired on the next unused competition target. Two (2) competition shots should be fired at the next competition target according to the instructions given by the Range officials or Jury Members. Range officials or Jury Members must ensure that a complete explanation is recorded on the score sheet.
======================
I think most of us agree that if the targets can be removed & changed in under 5 minutes, he would be OK to stick with his contention .... maybe you can if you have one target changer/hanger per lane and can get all the rifles safe (grounded & untouched, me.... I'd like to see CBI's too) .... so yeah ... maybe it's possible, but why stress the system and the shooters.
Jeez.... I'd hate to be the RO on the line hollering at the target changers to hurry up and run up, pull the targets, hang new ones and get back without chaos insuing..... ... especially if they are youngsters ..... disaster waiting to happen
Chill, take the time and be safe .... safety trumps all
My recommendation, if this is a JR match, call Bob Foth at USAS
======================
Bob Foth
Manager, Youth Programs and Coach Development
USA Shooting
TEL: 719-866-4881
======================
If it's an open match call Lindsay Brooke
======================
Lindsay Brooke
Competitions Manager
USA Shooting
(719) 866-4885
======================
Call and discuss with them, you have the perfect opportunity since this is before the match.
That all said .... I agree with you, but we shoot CMP "Blue Book" rules most of the time, and I think that this is the intent of the USAS rules too .... or that's how I'd vote if I was on the Jury.......
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7.6.4.4.1 Sighting shots (unlimited in number) may be fired only before the beginning of each competition or position. Once the first competition shot has been fired, no further sighting shots are allowed unless permitted by the Jury in accordance with these Rules. Any further sighting shot(s) fired in contravention of this rule must be scored as miss(es) in the competition.
====================
Now this, initially would seem to support the Match director, execpt for the "unless by the Jury in accordance with these rules"
So you have to continue to look for:
====================
7.6.5.2 If a shooter is interrupted for more than five (5) minutes, or moved to another firing point, he may have additional unlimited sighting shots at one sighting target at the beginning of his remaining shooting time together with any time extension granted plus an additional five (5) minutes. If automatic paper target systems which have no possibility for providing a new sighting target are in use, the sighting shots should be fired on the next unused competition target. Two (2) competition shots should be fired at the next competition target according to the instructions given by the Range officials or Jury Members. Range officials or Jury Members must ensure that a complete explanation is recorded on the score sheet.
======================
I think most of us agree that if the targets can be removed & changed in under 5 minutes, he would be OK to stick with his contention .... maybe you can if you have one target changer/hanger per lane and can get all the rifles safe (grounded & untouched, me.... I'd like to see CBI's too) .... so yeah ... maybe it's possible, but why stress the system and the shooters.
Jeez.... I'd hate to be the RO on the line hollering at the target changers to hurry up and run up, pull the targets, hang new ones and get back without chaos insuing..... ... especially if they are youngsters ..... disaster waiting to happen
Chill, take the time and be safe .... safety trumps all
My recommendation, if this is a JR match, call Bob Foth at USAS
======================
Bob Foth
Manager, Youth Programs and Coach Development
USA Shooting
TEL: 719-866-4881
======================
If it's an open match call Lindsay Brooke
======================
Lindsay Brooke
Competitions Manager
USA Shooting
(719) 866-4885
======================
Call and discuss with them, you have the perfect opportunity since this is before the match.
That all said .... I agree with you, but we shoot CMP "Blue Book" rules most of the time, and I think that this is the intent of the USAS rules too .... or that's how I'd vote if I was on the Jury.......
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
- Location: Ruislip, UK
The approach we have taken is this:
If there are carriers operated by the shooters from position, sighters are only allowed on the first record card. The shooter's feet can be kept in place, so no disruption. Shooting time allotted for the entire match.
Some ranges do not have carriers, so non-shooting assistants go downrange and change targets after everyone has finished whatever number of cards can be hung at a time. Usually 2 X 10. No additional sighters allowed. Shooting time is alloted for each set of cards. Sometimes separate sighting card are used with a defined sighting period.
If the shooters are required to walk downrange to change targets, sighters are allowed on each card. This would be no different from the situation in an outdoor 3 X 20 prone match or 3 X 40 3P match. Shooters change targets and sighters are allowed on each card.
If there are carriers operated by the shooters from position, sighters are only allowed on the first record card. The shooter's feet can be kept in place, so no disruption. Shooting time allotted for the entire match.
Some ranges do not have carriers, so non-shooting assistants go downrange and change targets after everyone has finished whatever number of cards can be hung at a time. Usually 2 X 10. No additional sighters allowed. Shooting time is alloted for each set of cards. Sometimes separate sighting card are used with a defined sighting period.
If the shooters are required to walk downrange to change targets, sighters are allowed on each card. This would be no different from the situation in an outdoor 3 X 20 prone match or 3 X 40 3P match. Shooters change targets and sighters are allowed on each card.
OK .... here's another $0.03 of opinion ....
I think Jim's situation is the same as many youth programs in the USA. We fire a majority of Air Rifle (sporter and precision) on 10 bull (gallery type) targets. There are very few ranges that have carriers and/or electronics. (in carriers, I include the TargetWorx roll carrier)
In the case of a 60 shot INTL match, we usually hang two targets, side by side, in a Lujan or similar type pellet trap system.
At the end of each 20 shots the targets are removed and then the next set hung.
Some additional comments ......
1) As I've mentioned above safety is #1 and having a "Go Fever" attitude and rushing is asking for some sort of accident. It is worth putting in an extra 15-20 minutes into each relay
2) I like to have the shooters hang their own targets, that way THEY are responsible for getting them hung straight .... if another person hangs the targets for them, and they are not straight, they have every right to raise their hand and request that they be straightened up. This takes a bit of time
3) In addition to the normal 10 minute prep period before the match begins, if we have the shooters get out of position (i.e. to remove and hang new targets), we allow an additional 5 minute prep period before "START" on the subsequent stages. In themselves, these prep periods require the additional sighters
4) Whats the big deal with additional sighters? It's really no harder to score the targets ..... the only folks who could possibly cause the scoring to slow down are those who fire outside the sighter rings and do not notify the RO .... and we have rules to deal with those excessive shots ......
USA Shooting's rules really are meant for international style competitions, and are geared towards venues that have single bull carriers, roll systems, or electronics. They probably do need to specifically address the gallery target systems in use as well .... They do ask us to apply some common sense, and I think most of us that shoot youth programs realize that the CMP 3-P Council rules add that extra "touch" to these types of ranges, thus we tend to use those rules as a clarifier
Again, Jim .... Bob and Lindsay are nice folks ... call them
(and then post)
I think Jim's situation is the same as many youth programs in the USA. We fire a majority of Air Rifle (sporter and precision) on 10 bull (gallery type) targets. There are very few ranges that have carriers and/or electronics. (in carriers, I include the TargetWorx roll carrier)
In the case of a 60 shot INTL match, we usually hang two targets, side by side, in a Lujan or similar type pellet trap system.
At the end of each 20 shots the targets are removed and then the next set hung.
Some additional comments ......
1) As I've mentioned above safety is #1 and having a "Go Fever" attitude and rushing is asking for some sort of accident. It is worth putting in an extra 15-20 minutes into each relay
2) I like to have the shooters hang their own targets, that way THEY are responsible for getting them hung straight .... if another person hangs the targets for them, and they are not straight, they have every right to raise their hand and request that they be straightened up. This takes a bit of time
3) In addition to the normal 10 minute prep period before the match begins, if we have the shooters get out of position (i.e. to remove and hang new targets), we allow an additional 5 minute prep period before "START" on the subsequent stages. In themselves, these prep periods require the additional sighters
4) Whats the big deal with additional sighters? It's really no harder to score the targets ..... the only folks who could possibly cause the scoring to slow down are those who fire outside the sighter rings and do not notify the RO .... and we have rules to deal with those excessive shots ......
USA Shooting's rules really are meant for international style competitions, and are geared towards venues that have single bull carriers, roll systems, or electronics. They probably do need to specifically address the gallery target systems in use as well .... They do ask us to apply some common sense, and I think most of us that shoot youth programs realize that the CMP 3-P Council rules add that extra "touch" to these types of ranges, thus we tend to use those rules as a clarifier
Again, Jim .... Bob and Lindsay are nice folks ... call them
(and then post)
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WRC
Thanks for starting this discussion, Jim. I also thought the rules for this particular match were ... ummm ... not quite right, and discussed it with the match director. Maybe he can be convinced to change. Either way, I do have to say that I appreciate that he opened the match to adults too, and I plan to be there, even if I have to bite my tongue about those pesky sighters! :^) PL
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SRichieR
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:39 am
- Location: Shelby County Shooting Sports; Alabama
Same problem here. USAS rules appear to be written for ranges with target carriers or electronics.
This year there was "great discussion" about whether to take additional sighters after the target changes. We decided to make sure that the target changes caused a range delay of more than 5 minutes so that we would meet all the rules.
Just my $0.02. I really would like to see USAS address this issue.
This year there was "great discussion" about whether to take additional sighters after the target changes. We decided to make sure that the target changes caused a range delay of more than 5 minutes so that we would meet all the rules.
Just my $0.02. I really would like to see USAS address this issue.
USAS clarification
I just talked to Lindsay Brooke at USAS. She clarified the rule: If the shooter breaks position, additional sighters are allowed. She also said that if range personnel changed the targets with the shooter in position and they did it in less than 5 minutes, then additional sighters would not be allowed. However, that should not happen as it would be an obvious safety issue. The bottom line: if you break position to change targets, you get sighters. She is also sending the clarification to the match director for this match.
Maybe this will lay this issue to rest for others besides me.
Thanks for all the feedback
Jim Holtman
Maybe this will lay this issue to rest for others besides me.
Thanks for all the feedback
Jim Holtman
Define "break position" please. We use individual carriers, and post two twelve bull targts at a time. We have never given extra sighters after the first card even though the shooter has to reel-in the targets and replace them with two more.
What difference is there between my taking a seven minute break to rest my back (or brain) after bulls number 16 and 17, or after bull number 20? The purpose of sighters (make sure sights were properly affixed and aligned) was accomplished before starting shooting the competition bulls.
In three position shooting there is a need to make sure sights are properly aligned due to fit of the rifle in various positions (hopefully the sights loosening isn't a problem unles you drop your rifle), so sighters are appropriate.
In a single position match you have accomplished what the sighters are meant for before your first competition shot. If having to change to a different lane due to target malfunction you would get new sighters due to possible changes in range conditions (lighting, floor surface, ventilation, ect).
What difference is there between my taking a seven minute break to rest my back (or brain) after bulls number 16 and 17, or after bull number 20? The purpose of sighters (make sure sights were properly affixed and aligned) was accomplished before starting shooting the competition bulls.
In three position shooting there is a need to make sure sights are properly aligned due to fit of the rifle in various positions (hopefully the sights loosening isn't a problem unles you drop your rifle), so sighters are appropriate.
In a single position match you have accomplished what the sighters are meant for before your first competition shot. If having to change to a different lane due to target malfunction you would get new sighters due to possible changes in range conditions (lighting, floor surface, ventilation, ect).
Pat,
International air is set up to shoot in 1 set of 60 shots in 1 hour and 45 minutes. break position would be grounding your rifle and inserting the CBI and steping back from the line or going forward to change targets. If you decide to take a break from the action, you have made that choice for yourself not required due to only being able to shot 20 shots at a time. If you have carriers and can make the change from the position then no sighters are needed as you have not left the line and I would assume that they could be changed in less than 5 minutes.
Jim Holtman
International air is set up to shoot in 1 set of 60 shots in 1 hour and 45 minutes. break position would be grounding your rifle and inserting the CBI and steping back from the line or going forward to change targets. If you decide to take a break from the action, you have made that choice for yourself not required due to only being able to shot 20 shots at a time. If you have carriers and can make the change from the position then no sighters are needed as you have not left the line and I would assume that they could be changed in less than 5 minutes.
Jim Holtman
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Ray Odle
I appreciate Jim's concern not to want to embarrass me my using my name, but I can take the heat.
Yes, I am the one causing the stink.
Since this 5 minute rule is in both USAS pistol and rifle rules, then as a pistol shooter I can demand more sighters when using the B 40/4 target. RIGHT!!
I still can't figure out why air rifle shooters need special concideration over what air pistol shooter have.
The big question:
Why do air rifle shooters BELIEVE they need extra sighters for the multi-bull targets?
I am heading to the bunker now.
Ray Odle
Illinois
Yes, I am the one causing the stink.
Since this 5 minute rule is in both USAS pistol and rifle rules, then as a pistol shooter I can demand more sighters when using the B 40/4 target. RIGHT!!
I still can't figure out why air rifle shooters need special concideration over what air pistol shooter have.
The big question:
Why do air rifle shooters BELIEVE they need extra sighters for the multi-bull targets?
I am heading to the bunker now.
Ray Odle
Illinois
From a rifle shooter's standpoint, my sighters are not just to sight in the rifle, but to make small corrections in NPA, identify any grip/trigger/body adjustments that need to be made before going for record. I spend a fair amount of time getting this perfect before going for record, so that I can continue this cycle of minute movements at a steady pace. Once this routine has been broken, it's like a reset button.Ray Odle wrote:I appreciate Jim's concern not to want to embarrass me my using my name, but I can take the heat.
Yes, I am the one causing the stink.
Since this 5 minute rule is in both USAS pistol and rifle rules, then as a pistol shooter I can demand more sighters when using the B 40/4 target. RIGHT!!
I still can't figure out why air rifle shooters need special concideration over what air pistol shooter have.
The big question:
Why do air rifle shooters BELIEVE they need extra sighters for the multi-bull targets?
I am heading to the bunker now.
Ray Odle
Illinois
Having shot a small amount of pistol in my life, but a considerable amount of smallbore and air rifle, I've found that it is more difficult to repeat my hold and intricacies of a position with a rifle than with a pistol. This may very well be the result of having both hands on the rifle, reliance on the footing, curvature of the spine, supporting arm and elbow, etc.
Ray
Pistol shooters can
Like someone already posted
8.6.5.1.3 If a shooter is interrupted for more than five (5) minutes, or moved to another firing point, he may have additional unlimited sighting shots at one sighting target at the beginning of his remaining shooting time together with any time extension granted plus an additional five (5) minutes. If automatic paper target systems which have no possibility for providing a new sighting target are in use, the sighting shots should be fired on the next unused competition target. For 10 m the next two (2) competition shots should be fired at the following target; for 50 m the appropriate number of shots should be fired at the next competition target according to the instructions given by the Range officials or Jury Members. Range officials or Jury Members must ensure that a complete explanation is recorded on the score sheet.
Besides the fact Pistol is Pistol and Rifle is Rifle
The job of the official is to enforce the rules as written not enforce what they feel they should be based on another sport, just because they don't agree with them, which seems to be your point pistol shooters don't get it so rifle shooters shouldn't either (which is flawed to begin with).
Pistol shooters can
Like someone already posted
8.6.5.1.3 If a shooter is interrupted for more than five (5) minutes, or moved to another firing point, he may have additional unlimited sighting shots at one sighting target at the beginning of his remaining shooting time together with any time extension granted plus an additional five (5) minutes. If automatic paper target systems which have no possibility for providing a new sighting target are in use, the sighting shots should be fired on the next unused competition target. For 10 m the next two (2) competition shots should be fired at the following target; for 50 m the appropriate number of shots should be fired at the next competition target according to the instructions given by the Range officials or Jury Members. Range officials or Jury Members must ensure that a complete explanation is recorded on the score sheet.
Besides the fact Pistol is Pistol and Rifle is Rifle
The job of the official is to enforce the rules as written not enforce what they feel they should be based on another sport, just because they don't agree with them, which seems to be your point pistol shooters don't get it so rifle shooters shouldn't either (which is flawed to begin with).