Standing position issue....rotation to the right.

[Roy Hill]

I coach a collegiate air rifle club team.

I've got a shooter struggling with standing position some.

I'll give the background, and then ask a question.

He's a right handed shooter.

He builds a very orthodox looking position--foot position, weight shift, elbow over front hip, head not tilted, etc.

But when he checks natural point of aim, he winds up consistently to the right of the target.

No matter how we adjust his foot position, he winds up right of the bull.

Something else I know is that the shooter is an art major.

This is a a factor as he recently did a life-sized self-portrait as a class assignment, and learned that for his arm and leg length, his torso is actually quite a bit shorter than normal proportions for people his size.

So, short torso, relatively very long arms and legs, orthodox-looking position, but consistently to the right in NPA no matter what foot position adjustments we make.

Yesterday in working with him, we found two things.

1) His natural point of aim can wind up on the target if he "opens" his stance a bit....he adds a bit of stagger to his feet.....front foot (left) opens a bit more to the left, and rear foot (right) goes a bit to the right.

From the side, the shift looks significant, but when I look at him from head on, the foot stagger doesn't look that radical.

2) We found that as he eases into the very last bit of his orthodox position (original position) that his hips seem to rotate just the slightest bit to the left, which seems to cause the rifle to point off to the right.

Found supporting info in the book "Ways of the Rifle" in the standing position chapter about hip rotation and "Zero Point" (as NPA is called in that book) being consistently to the right.

Here's my question:

Would it be better to try to get him to not rotate his hips that last little bit, so that NPA is better in his more "conventional" stance?

Or would it be better to let him stagger his feet a bit to improve NPA in a stance he actually feels comfortable in and has been shooting in for a couple of years?

The shooter himself said that he would like to try the foot-stagger, as he claims he felt more stable, and thus more confident with the foot-stagger solution.

So far, it's been only one day, so not nearly enough time to see any real affects.

But because the shooter says he feels more confident and stable, I'm leaning to that way for now.

But I was seeking "second opinions" if you will......modify the orthodox position with less hip rotation, and allow foot-stagger to get existing position to have NPA on the target?

Thanks for any response.

Roy Hill

[Guest]

Oops.. typo in last sentence of the original post...

That should be get rid of the hip rotation OR allow the foot stagger...

Not and....it should be "or."

Thanks,

Roy Hill

[hambone49]

dear roy, does he use oils or acrylics?

[laxratnd]

I would let him feel out the staggered position for a couple of days to see how it is. If he is more comfortable in that position it is better off. Opening up the position is not a bad thing. See how he feel with it. Also try having him stretch the muscle groups for offhand. Another thing is have you tried walking his whole position to the right or left of the point.

[Guest]

hambone49, neither oil nor acrylics......charcoal drawing, actually

[Roy Hill]

laxratnd, thanks for the response.

I'll see how he feels about the open position over the next several days.

Yes, we tried walking the position to the left a bit, but the shooter didn't feel like that was enough of a solution.

Since most of our shooting is on 10 bull paper targets, the shooter felt that it would further complicate having to set up to the left of each vertical columns of bullseyes.

He does stretch before shooting.

Thanks again,

[Pat McCoy]

Try the "open" position, and pay especial attention to balance of weight (equal on both feet). Sounds like he may have most of his weight on the forward foot when shooting in the original position, due to shifting his hip forward, which can reduce the effect of moving the rear foot for NPA. Also makes it tougher to adjust vertical NPA with movement of rear foot closer or farthe from front foot.

Try to stay away from any "twist" in the torso/low back area, as it can lead to long term problems (talk to Bob Foth about this).

We've adopted a horizontal shoulder shift (one of our junior girls was a dancer, and showed us the move), that shifts the upper body horizontally away from the target (but without tilting the hips or shoulders). Easiest way to learn it is to stand with arms out to sides from shoulder (parallel to ground), and have someone pull on the jacket sleeve of the arm away from the target while holding their other hand against the shooter's hip (so it cannot come back witht he upper body).

Gives a spot for upper arm to rest, but keeps both feet with even weight and doesn't twist the lower back.

[Roy Hill]

Thank Pat McCoy....we'll try that one, too.

[Joe66]

I am not a coach, just a shooter.

I had the same problem. At the beginning I made the mistake of listen to coaches. They all told me to move my right foot (I shoot right handed). The solution I am providing to you comes from good shooters (shooting 385/400 or better). I will not comment on what your shooter feels comfortable or not.

Solution: re-position your rifle butt further down your right arm.

Let me elaborate:
(1) Foot position by itself will change very little your NPOA. Foot position is the end result of entire body rotation. If you want to change your NPOA horizontally, you need to rotate your entire body, thus your feet will have to go along with it. NEVER twist your hip or torso.

(2) With that said (item #1), try not to rotate your body if possible.

(3) Start with a classic off-hand position, yes, the one they show you in all those “How to” books.

(4) If your rifle is pointing to the right of your target, re-position the rifle butt. Take the rifle butt off the pocket between your shoulder and right arm, and re-position it further down your right arm. Yes, I know, the butt is sitting only on your upper right arm. Now, the rifle should be pointing significantly less to the right.

(5) If your rifle is still pointing a little bit to the right, do item #1 above, you need only do a little.

I hope this help, because it WORKED for me!
I now listen only to good shooters.

[Pat McCoy]

Roy,

I'm afraid I have to differ strongly with Joe66.

You may want to try his technique, BUT be especially watchful of change in head position and rifle cant when you move the position of the butt on the arm/shoulder.

The idea is to try to establish a well balanced position which changes as litte as possible from shot to shot. Moving the rifle on the arm will cause head tilt, giving an unballanced position due to the weight of the head being off the center of gravity of the body (as well as balance problems casued by inner ear imbalance in some, especially older, shooters).

Maintaining upper body position with a balanced foot platform, then rotataing the feet for horizontal NPA adjustment, and spreading the feet for vertical adjustment allows the shooter to maintain the same upper body position.

I have had many juniors shooting standing airrifle with averages in the 392-395 area over the past years, unfortunately only one was able to continue this performance at the National JORC, winning in 1998.

When we have problems it is almost always associated with balance due to head tilt and inconsistent cant of the rifle.

[isuguncoach]

Joe66's idea of rifle butt placement will reduce twist in the upper body.

By placing the rifle butt in the small depression between the shoulder joint and the top of the bicep, the butt of the rifle is farther away from the body of the shooter. This allows the stock of the rifle to lie closer to the upper chest of the shooter. By shooting across the position, the front supporting arm can be directly under the rifle in the same plain as the rest of the body. The rifle is setting on the shooter in a much more straight plain, and closer to the shooter for much better balance.

With the rifle closer to the shooter's body, the head doesn't have to reach for the cheek piece, and has a much more upright position, also helping balance.

I realize it doesn't sound correct to have a better position with the butt of the rifle further away from the body, but it will bring the stock into that position where balance and consistence are much easier to maintain.

For an experienced shooter this change will take some practice time. I have the advantage of coaching a University club, and most of the shooters are from the Chicago metro area, and have never touched a rifle, let alone a precision air rifle. When I coach standing, I coach an arm placement of the butt stock. They don't know anything else. This year we have 3 new shooters that started in August, and now at the 1st of Oct. they are shooting standing scores average 86s. It works.

Joe

[Joe66]

isuguncoach,

You are right on!
Did you personally tried out my suggestions before or just know from experience?

[Pat McCoy]

I have no problem with placement of the buttplate in the crook of the shoulder/bicep, but moving it for each shot to adjust NPA is only going to degrade the position by changing it every shot. Consistency is the key.

[isuguncoach]

Joe66 I have been coaching this for at least 6 years. Works very well with long bone body structures in shooters. Typically tall shooters with long necks have a difficult time reaching the cheek piece, so have to adapt some how. It works well with lots of shooters. Basically works to get the gun across the shooters chest and closer to the center of gravity. It is an old trick, muzzleloading rifle shooters have shot this for ages, thats where I picked it up.

Consistency is not a problem. The shooting jacket will form a "pocket" around the butt plate and the location will quickly be the same. For experienced shooters it is a task of adjusting to a different point of balance, but once they have adjusted to the change in balance, having the rifle closer to them will give them a lot more control, and slow down any motion in the standing position.

Now if I could just come up with some coaching ideas that would make kneeling easier for new shooters, I would be real happy.

Joe66 got any ideas?????

Joe

[Joe66]

What!? Who said "moving it for each shot to adjust NPA ..."
Once you found your NPOA and you made the adjustments to center your sights over the target, You are set and ready to shoot sighters.

Sometimes I have a hard time following what you are saying or your logic.

[isuguncoach]

Pat,
Excuse me for skipping your note.

When a shooter places the butt plate in the arm depression, they should not change THAT LOCATION to adjust NPA. Once the arm position is centered over the balance point, the butt plate stays there throught out the target.
I agree with earlier posts, there is just too much going on with the head, neck , cheek piece, and sight alignment to try and adjust NPA for each shot by adjusting the placement of the butt stock.

Joe

[Joe66]

Joe,

Unfortunately I have not yet master the kneeling position, thus I am reluctant to give anybody advise on this position. I could cite passages from shooting books, but I learned that some of the best answers are not found in books. My last advice on moving the butt plate down to the upper arm is from my many years of shooting off-hand and learning from it. Reading your responses in this forum, it seems like you have a good amount of shooting knowledgeable and not just bull sh---ing. I hope you share your solution with the rest of us, once you figure it out.

[Pat McCoy]

Joe,

Are you shooting air rifle on single bull targets? that may explain some of the diferences in our outlook. we use twelve bull targets, and must change NPA slightly for each bull.

I too shoot my Hawken and flintlocks from the fold of the bicep, but have to be very careful to move feet very slightly on the six bull targets to get proper NPA. The others are all single bull targets, and once NPA is established you are set to go.

[Albert B]

isucoach,
what kind of problems do you have teaching kneeling position to new shooters? perhaps I can help?

Albert B
(The Netherlands)

[isuguncoach]

Pat

We also shoot the 12 bull air target, and if you pattern the targets shot, minor NPA adjustments are neccesary. With an arm resting point for the butt plate, the increased balanced of the rifle should make the changes easier to accomodate with minor foot position changes. We some times wonder how the international competitions shoot such high scores, I can't help but think shooting on an electronic target that does not require an NPA adjustment with each shot, would help immensely.

Albert,

The greatest difficultly in coaching kneeling is the large variety of body types that all try to get in to a well balanced position, and achieve something close to comfort. Everyone seems to be a little different, and has to constantly work on something "new and different" seeking a great kneeling position. Just as in all position shooting, one change in one part of a position will change how the entire position "works" for a shooter. My experience has been in kneeling, one small change can throw the entire kneeling position out of "whack", it is very frustrating for shooter, and coach.

Joe