What is the Best Prone Smallbore rifle for olympic 50 meter

[Rifle New bee]

I want to but a rifle for olympic 50 meter prone competition and would like some suggestions. Money being no object I am 6'1'' tall and right handed.

[Rifle new bee]

I meant to say I want to buy a prone 50 meter rifle...

[Guest]

to list a few:

FWB 2700
Walther kk300
Anschutz 20**

There is no clear best rifle, that's why there is such a preponderance of options. My suggestion is to go to a large store or match where you can check out a number of them and see what feels best.

[metermatch]

I would have to argue with the above. The Anschutz is the very clear winner, if you look at what the top prone-only shooters are using, and have for the last 20+ years.

Buy an Anschutz 2013 or an 1813/1913 in good shape will do fine. Maybe put a new barrel on the older gun, and maybe consider a Kenyon trigger. Anschutz sights aren't my favorite: I like my Sam Gates sight. But the Anschutz is definately world class. ( I don't like dovetails taking up the slop in threads. The Gates sight spring loads one side of the threads, always taking up the slop. Don't believe there's a difference? Take a dial indicator to them. My Gates sight returns to well less than .001" every time. Smokes every Anschutz sight I have ever tested)

Some people like the Anschutz prone stock. I don't. The stock grip is one size fits all, which means way too small for you or me (I'm 6'3"). You could try a 1811/1911 prone gun to see.

The Anschutz rifles have the best resale value. And my observation is the Anschutz rifles outnumber the Walther and Feinwerkbau rifles at least 10 to 1 in smallbore prone competition. (in the US). Keep in mind this is for the dedicated prone-only shooters. The ones who could care less about 3P. Prone-only shooters commonly take an Anschutz action and put it in a different stock. Perhaps nowadays you may see more of the FWB and Walthers in prone because their owners also shoot 3 position. Now that I think of it, I have never met anyone that bought a new Walther or FWB exclusively as a prone gun........at least in Los Angeles. They were just their old 3P guns.....or they got a screamin' deal on it!

Back in the 1980's, if you had a Walther or a FWB to sell, you had yourself an orphan.........kind of like selling a BSA Martini............

Keep in mind, the greater popularity of the Anschutz means spare parts and aftermarket accessories are plentiful.

Back in the 1980's, the last time I was at Camp Perry, Anschutz rifles were used by AT LEAST 90% of the competetitors. Most of the others were Winchester 52's, and maybe an odd Rem 37 (George Stidworthy!) and a couple of Walthers and maybe a FWB.

By the way, if you are asking this question, then you are likely a beginner, and ANY of the above rifles are so far beyond your skill level at this time that it is no concern whatsoever. Your most cost effective route would be to get a nice 1813/1913, shoot it until you make Master, then consider a new gun to reward yourself. Plan on 2-5 years just to make Master. Then you can start sorting ammo. There is a guy at my club that shoots a stock H&R 12? from the DCM (currently $225), and shoots Expert class. Any of the above rifles can and HAVE gone to the Olympics right out of the box with just a little fine tuning and careful ammo selection. Just pick the rifle that seems to fit you best. But my personal choice would be the Anschutz hands down.

Find a survey of equipment from Camp Perry and the ISU Nationals at Ft Benning. I bet you will find Anschutz the very clear winner. (By the way, put more emphasis on what the winners/master class shooters are using).

And I am putting my money where my mouth is. I bought an Anschutz 1813 new in 1985, and set 8 national records with it, right out of the box. (Karl Kenyon did put a Schneider barrel and one of his triggers on it). After a 15 year break from any shooting, I bought a new absolutely stock 2013 Anschutz last month, shot it for the first time last weekend, and fired a 589 english match. And I know the points I dropped were me - I called every one of them out.

Good luck,

Jeff

[michael]

I think Jeff is unaware to the changes in the last 20 years. FWB and Walther are very popular and Anschutz is going back. the only top prone shooter using Anschutz is Martinov.
Jeff is right about old Anschutz rifles - they were very good. I have an 1813 and using the same old barrel shot last June 596 in a match.

[metermatch]

While I agree I am not totally current, I am referring to the United States. And didn't Emmons win the Gold in prone (and really 3P) in 2004 with an Anschutz 2013?

We could argue this forever and get nowhere. Any of these guns are better than 98% of the shooters out there.

What are the AMU shooters using?

If you really want the best opinion, go ask Wigger.

Jeff

[PaulB]

Personally have used Anschutz 1411 for over 30 years, a number of national records, about 20-1600's and 2-3200's. At matches where I have been an official (mostly NCAA's, plus the 96 Olympics) I counted more Anschutz than anything else. Recently, if you look at the pilkguns picture galleries (you have to know what you are looking for since there are few closeups), you are seeing some more Walther and some Feinwerkbau, but still a lot of Anschutz. For 50m international (because of the small 10 ring) is most important to do a lot of accuracy testing to assure good barrel, good bedding, proper torque, proper tuning (if applicable), good ammo and a good gun-ammo match.

[Rifle buyer]

Hello and thanks again for all the nice information.
I shoot international pistol comtetitively. But I know that I am much better rifle shooter than pistol, and especially in prone. I am interested in a rifle that I will not have to change or buy another in 5 years or when I make master, etc...

I have gone down that road before, (buy something to start and upgrade later). You just end up spending more money and having to deal with gun issues instead of just getting in practice time and having a gun you can rely on 100%. In addition I do not have much time or interest in gunsmithing or fiddling with my equipment. I much rather spend the time shooting.

I am looking at the 2013 and maybe a 700a FWB. I will only use the gun for prone and will shoot for the most part international 50 meter prone only. Maybe a little bit of NRA for Camp Perry and other big matches.

What is the best is my only concern I want something adjustable, reliable, accurate and that will last.

Thanks

Jose

[jose]

Correction the rifle I am interested is the FWB MOD 2700 .22CAL
Is this a good choice for Prone? Or am I better off with the 2013.

Champions choice also offers one rifle Grunig / Anschutz 2013 complete combo with / SS barrel...
Is that a good choice?

[j.edwards]

to list a few:

FWB 2700
Walther kk300
Anschutz 20**

There is no clear best rifle, that's why there is such a preponderance of options. My suggestion is to go to a large store or match where you can check out a number of them and see what feels best.

I think this post answers the question.

There was a thread on this forum some time ago (maybe a year). It provided a number of statistics regarding how many of the various most popular rifles were on international firing lines, which brand had earned the most medals in international championships, which brand had the most Olympic medals, which had the most Olympic golds, etc.

While Anschutz may have been the clear leader some time ago, this is no longer the case. The statistics did not show any clear winner. I seriously doubt that there is any data to support the conclusion that any one of the above mentioned manufacturers produces rifles that are consistently more accurate than the others.

[Lee Sellers]

Much of the reason there are so many Anschutz rifles in the US is or was availablity. For many years there were very few rifles imported to the US markets other than the Anschutz.

All modern guns will outshoot all but the most (probably all) skilled humans. It's a matter of ergonomics more than accuracy now.

FWIW

[Sparks]

I might inject at this point the notion that a factor in "what's the best rifle for me?" is the answer to the question "which manufacturer will repair my rifle without having to ship it internationally to the factory?". Certainly in Europe right now, Anschutz's after-sales support is second to none. Not sure how it is in the US, but over here, that's enough reason to choose anschutz for smallbore every time money allows. The Walther and FWB rifles are fine rifles with good stocks - the rounded foreend on the FWB 2602 is a particularly good development - but if you need it serviced and you have to ship it to germany to do so, that's a mark against it really.

[Jim E]

A non-issue here in the US with the current distributor providing Walther's factory repair and part support.

[B.T.Carstensen]

If you look at some prone finals you will see that most of the top shooters are useing a wood stock that should tell you something right there. If Money no is object then I would say get a 2013 barreled action and a wood stock then put a Lilja barrel on it and look at getting a new trigger and you are most definitely going to want to put a sight tube on you rifle. Also is money is really no object then look at this rifle.
(http://www.nealjguns.com/ss_store/Small ... s-ss3.html)
They have a few at the OTC.

<>Brian<>

[TomTamas]

My name is Tom Tamas and I shoot an anschutz for prone.....Nuff said

[B.T.Carstensen]

My name is Tom Tamas and I shoot an anschutz for prone.....Nuff said

listen to this man he definitely knows what he is talking about.

[MSNations]

To protect myself a little (#2 post)...

For reference, the current Olympic 50m prone record (600/600) is held by Christian Lusch shooting a FWB 2700.

Based on a review of recent prone finals, it's obvious that model and year are insignificant (if you stay within the major brands). Old FWB's are not popular at all, but kk200s as well as the ever-popular old anschutz rifles are quite common.

Perhaps buying a 2013 just to restock, retrigger, and rebarrel is a little excessive, although I'm sure anyone would be proud to own such a rifle. My opinion:
1. Pick a rifle
2. Get the rifle
3. Shoot it for a season or so AS-IS.
4. After extensive experience with your rifle, evaluate any perceived inadequacies. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

The fact is, it's 99% shooter, 1% rifle (if that).

[Guest]

No he isn't. Christian Klees is the current Olympic record holder, (704.8?) set at Atlanta '96 using a Diana 820.

Christian Lusch took the silver medal at the Athens games, with 702.2 (598 main match). Emmons won the gold with 703.3 (599 main match).

Tim S

[metermatch]

I have to take issue with a previous poster saying that prone shooting is 99% shooter and 1% rifle. Sorry.

Not even close.

And I think this is at the core of this "which rifle is best" argument. For prone shooting. You are basically bench rest shooting.

The new rifles are all pretty much the same. Buy what you think looks pretty and fits you. By the way, all of the new top rifles can be made to fit you. They are all that good.

Top level prone shooting is probably 50% gun/ammo, and 50% shooter. Of the 50% part that is shooter, probably 75% of that is mental.

I am sure we have all seen the test targets that come with our shiny new rifles, easily cleaning the 50m target ten ring. That is good enough. Right?

Baloney.

Top level prone shooters are constantly testing ammo, and to a lesser extent their gun and barrel. If you think the national and world level shooters are going to the store, buying a new gun, picking up a few boxes of Tenex, and going out a winning medals, than I have big news for you.

When you make it to the shooting level of Master in the U.S., you now must spend a lot of time building a really accurate rifle/ammo combo. Just holding the ten ring is not near enough. You need to hold inside the x-ring accuracy. I suspect we all know that any brand of ammo has good lots and bad lots. What you might not know is that if you are not high enough up on the food chain, you likely will never get any good ammo, and never make it to the pinnacle of shooting competition. You are not likely walk into your favorite target gun store and buy medal winning Tenex.


This is the dirty little secret of prone shooting.

I assure you that the AMU and OTC boys are getting their Tenex directly from the importer, if not directly from England. They aren't buying it from a discount mail order house! They test and use the best for competition. Whatever is left is tested by the importer and his buddies, the best kept for themselves, and passed on to distrubutors, who test and have buddies, pick the best, etc, etc, until the average Joe who buys mail order pays $1100 a case for the left-over junk.

I remember in the mid 1980's I did just that, ordered about 15 different lots of Eley Tenex ammo from a major target shooting mail order house, tested it all, and it sucked. I mean it all really sucked. I could have had better luck with Remington Target. A waste of $200 and a day of time.

I assure you the AMU and OTC boys test many barrels. I am sure you have all read about Emmons getting 5 Lilja barrels and selecting the best one to shoot the Olympics. That was not because he did not have anything else better to do.

I remember the early times at my club when I was moving up, I was pretty sure I was not getting the "good stuff". I suppose it doesn't make sense to sell a Sharpshooter class person the "good stuff". Whatever the reason, around the time I made Master, I was allowed more opportunity to test the new lots of Tenex when it came in from the importer/distributor, and compare notes with the other top guns of the club. I knew I had "arrived" when I was testing ammo along side shooters like Billy Meek, David Kimes, Steve Dember, Ben and Barry Smith, etc. And lo and behold! I started setting National Records! Guess what, when I ran out of that ammo (1987 Eley Tenex WJ1001) I sucked again!

Ask any top level prone shooter how many different lots of ammo they have at their house. I bet he will laugh and say too many to count............


So don't tell me it is only 1% rifle.

It is largely a case of WHO YOU KNOW that can supply you with the great ammo when you get to the top above base Master level.

The guys that can and have shot 1600's and 3200's, or above 595 in competition.

Expert class and below will hardly know the difference.

So buy any top level gun you want. That purchase itself is just the beginning. Just buy what gun you can get spares/accessories/service for in your area. You will probably shoot out the barrel making Master anyway. Then you can deal with the real barrel/ammo testing required to win.

This is the main reason why I wanted to switch to pistol shooting. Here, it really is 99% shooter, 1% gun......



Jeff

[new bee]

What is the better choice for prone shooting. wood stock FWB 2700 or metal stock FWB 2700.

The wood appears to be less adjustable and more fitting to shoot prone with. I like to know which one will suit me better for prone. I might shoot 3P later but part of the reason I want to shoot rifle instead of pistol is because I have a hard time standing up for too long.

Also I see the rifle is offered in bot 22 and 24mm barrel diameter, what is better for prone (the heavy barrel).