This is a follow-up question on jacket stiffness...
Earlier posts indicated that jacket stiffness is an important consideration. I assume that was referring to 3-position or air rifle???? Not prone only???
I am a returning prone only shooter after a 15 year break. My question is what is the current trend in prone only jackets? When I shot 15 years ago (master in all s/b prone disciplines with numerous national records), most people used a leather/canvass Hawkeye ISU jacket. At least in the Los Angeles area.
As I have gained a few pounds over the years and the Hawkeye doesn't fit very well any more, I bought a Champions Choice leather/canvass ISU jacket. While the jacket is nice and a very good value for the price, it is extremely uncomfortable shooting prone (for me, at least). It is very stiff, and it feels like I have to fight it to get into position. My biggest problem is the jacket bunches up behind my neck so much, I cannot relax my neck muscles while in position. Clearly, this jacket would work very well standing or kneeling. (by the way, I'm not knocking the Champions Choice jacket, it is made as well as my Hawkeye, in some areas better).
I was actually thinking of rolling the jacket up and running it over with my car to loosen it up a bit. No joke. I remember years ago my Hawkeye needed a little break-in, but nothing like this. I'm not interested in shooting for 6 months to make my jacket happy.
My question is: Are prone only jackets, such as a Kurt Thune, made of a soft leather, such as my Harley motorcycle jacket, with the back collar removed, or are they also stiff, for some reason I do not understand?? I am not aware of any reason for a stiff jacket or support in prone. The only thing you need in a prone jacket is padding for the arms and elbows, and stomach. Most of the rest of the jacket can be a hinderance.
Personally, I think prone could be better fired in a T-shirt, if it weren't for the pain in the elbows and sling arm.
Thank You,
Jeff
Jacket stiffness? for Prone only??
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metermatch
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- Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Guest
A stiff jacket is useful in prone shooting. It does much more than provide a convenient place hang padding. If that was the case every one would still be using the old 10X type.
The jacket helps to support the weight of the rifle, by supporting the sling and spreading the weight from the upper arm across your back. A stiff jacket made of double layer canvas (or canvas lined leather) is better than one made of light twill (such as the old 10X). The jacket also holds you in position.
The expensive european makers such as Thune, Mouche and Truttmann use fairly heavy leather over cotton canvas. The canvas lining is there to prevent the leather streatching over time.
The problem you describe is common to cheaper jackets. Pain in the back of the neck is really not good. Better quality jackets have the neck area made of soft material, usually leather but lined with light cloth not canvas, so that it does not dig into you. This is one of the niceties that don't appear on basic model jackets because of cost.
The jacket helps to support the weight of the rifle, by supporting the sling and spreading the weight from the upper arm across your back. A stiff jacket made of double layer canvas (or canvas lined leather) is better than one made of light twill (such as the old 10X). The jacket also holds you in position.
The expensive european makers such as Thune, Mouche and Truttmann use fairly heavy leather over cotton canvas. The canvas lining is there to prevent the leather streatching over time.
The problem you describe is common to cheaper jackets. Pain in the back of the neck is really not good. Better quality jackets have the neck area made of soft material, usually leather but lined with light cloth not canvas, so that it does not dig into you. This is one of the niceties that don't appear on basic model jackets because of cost.
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Martin
Re: Jacket stiffness? for Prone only??
As you say, you need your jacket to provide padding for your elbows. However, it also needs to provide a consistent mounting point for your sling. If your sling moves down your arm, even slightly, it will change your position significantly.metermatch wrote:I am not aware of any reason for a stiff jacket or support in prone. The only thing you need in a prone jacket is padding for the arms and elbows, and stomach. Most of the rest of the jacket can be a hindrance.
As a result, the key fitting of the jacket is across the back of the shoulders; so that for a right-handed shooter, the loop of material around your right shoulder prevents the sling pulling the jacket to the left across your back (with the result that the sling mount slowly slides down your left arm).
However, sliding isn't the only problem - so is stretching (like leather slings v. plastic); if the jacket stretches under the tension, the result is the same as if it slides.
So; you want a material that won't stretch, but is still flexible. You would want it to act like a piece of paper, in that if you pulled diagonally opposite corners, the sheet of paper wouldn't change shape; I suppose the answer if you're using a woven cloth is to use a stiffer material. There's an opportunity there to play with materials that are flexible without being stretchable...
As for the neck problem, if you can't return it, you could tailor the jacket at the back by cutting (scalloping?) a slightly deeper hole for the collar at the back - that's what I get done to mine.
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wrc
You and I seem to have the same jacket irritations!
Interesting to read everyone's thoughts about this.
In prone, my jacket also rides up and clips me across the back of the neck - scrunching up the soft leather strip that is back there - and also eventually starts to clip me under the jaw. Think of a turtle's shell, & you've got the idea! The jacket is, however, quite tight around my torso (and getting tighter, dag-nabit!).
I believe that part of the problem is the smallish cut to the sleeve diameter at the armpit. As the arms are "raised up" above the shoulders for prone, without enough gusseting under the arm, the sleeve will take the jacket along. Any regular jacket, blazer, or shirt will do this too.
Shooting without buttoning it sounds interesting, but I'm afraid the jacket will pull up even more. Maybe that would be proof of my fit theory!
So - what jackets are different, and how on earth can we tell, since there are nearly no chances of trying a bunch of different brands at once; or is it that some of us aren't the right shape to fit into an off-the-rack coat no matter which brand?
Coach Paula "I hate prone", Wheaton Rifle Club
Interesting to read everyone's thoughts about this.
In prone, my jacket also rides up and clips me across the back of the neck - scrunching up the soft leather strip that is back there - and also eventually starts to clip me under the jaw. Think of a turtle's shell, & you've got the idea! The jacket is, however, quite tight around my torso (and getting tighter, dag-nabit!).
I believe that part of the problem is the smallish cut to the sleeve diameter at the armpit. As the arms are "raised up" above the shoulders for prone, without enough gusseting under the arm, the sleeve will take the jacket along. Any regular jacket, blazer, or shirt will do this too.
Shooting without buttoning it sounds interesting, but I'm afraid the jacket will pull up even more. Maybe that would be proof of my fit theory!
So - what jackets are different, and how on earth can we tell, since there are nearly no chances of trying a bunch of different brands at once; or is it that some of us aren't the right shape to fit into an off-the-rack coat no matter which brand?
Coach Paula "I hate prone", Wheaton Rifle Club
Hi,
I have a Kurt Thune made to measure coat now. It is nearly impossible to shoot prone with all the buttons done up esp when it was new. I usually use just the top two buttons. The coat is very stable and the sling doesn't move down my arm once I am in position.
If the fit is correct across the back then the coat shouldn't move. I had a coat that too big across the shoulders and it always moved around, I got 100mm taken out across the back of the coat and it was much improved. The usual problems of the coat hitting me on the back of the head and on the left chin all disappeared once it was altered.
Remember the sling pulls onto to the coat via the sling loop, which in turn pulls on the coat across your back all the way to your trigger armpit of your coat. If the back of the coat is too big (or indeed the diameter of sling arm ) then the coat will move upwards and over your shoulder towards the rifle as the weight comes onto the sling. All very frustrating when it happens as it really mucks up your position very quickly.
Of course if the coat is too small you can get all sorts of pulse problems (and nagging from your wife to lose weight). The next coat was a second hand one with the sleeves altered and the left sleeve inner lining was just too tight across the elbow which really induced a pulse which took ages to find.
Hope all this helps
Martin H
I have a Kurt Thune made to measure coat now. It is nearly impossible to shoot prone with all the buttons done up esp when it was new. I usually use just the top two buttons. The coat is very stable and the sling doesn't move down my arm once I am in position.
If the fit is correct across the back then the coat shouldn't move. I had a coat that too big across the shoulders and it always moved around, I got 100mm taken out across the back of the coat and it was much improved. The usual problems of the coat hitting me on the back of the head and on the left chin all disappeared once it was altered.
Remember the sling pulls onto to the coat via the sling loop, which in turn pulls on the coat across your back all the way to your trigger armpit of your coat. If the back of the coat is too big (or indeed the diameter of sling arm ) then the coat will move upwards and over your shoulder towards the rifle as the weight comes onto the sling. All very frustrating when it happens as it really mucks up your position very quickly.
Of course if the coat is too small you can get all sorts of pulse problems (and nagging from your wife to lose weight). The next coat was a second hand one with the sleeves altered and the left sleeve inner lining was just too tight across the elbow which really induced a pulse which took ages to find.
Hope all this helps
Martin H
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