Steve Swartz, Ed Hall and you good shooters, your opinion(s) please:
I recently had a discussion with a very good Bulls-eye shooter and we discussed 50 yard .22 slow fire. He suggested that I try to make each shoot an exact copy of every other shot. He likened it to a continuous loop of film of a perfect shot, played over and over. He said that after he lowered the pistol sights into the appropriate sight zone, he counted to five, not in seconds, just a count of five. If the sight picture had not steadied up by five, he aborted the shot. If the sight picture looked and felt good, he began his squeeze so that the shot broke at the count of seven and he held his follow-through to the count of nine. He felt a repeatable time contributed to proper muscle memory better than holding and holding and holding until the sight picture steadied. Do you believe this is a valid concept?
Elliott Dushkin
firing sequence timing
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Fred
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Steve Swartz
Elliott:
Agree sort of kind of in principle with some of what is posited but not the conclusion nor analysis.
1) Muscles don't have memory (yeah, I know, it's not your fault, but this is one of those grating pieces of folklorical misinterpretation that causes a lot of miscommunication)
2) Consistency, repeatability, etc. are Good Things Indeed; and I agree that overholding is a Very Bad Thing however
- Should you really be counting in your head while trying to shoot?
- What is really magic about "5" or "7" or "9" or any other number for that matter?
- Why would you need to count in yoru head to avoid "holding and holding until teh sight picture steadied?" This is what's called the "false choice" argument in rhetoric OBTW
3) Anyhow, you should be a. focused intently on the desired behavior, which requires you to b. know what those desired behaviors are (p.s. overholding ain't one of them) and then c. execute those behaviors properly
Yep I've heard things like this- and used tehm to get through rough patches- but counting in your head is an unecessary distraction IMNSHO.
But, as usual, if it helps your specific condition . . .
Steve Swartz
Agree sort of kind of in principle with some of what is posited but not the conclusion nor analysis.
1) Muscles don't have memory (yeah, I know, it's not your fault, but this is one of those grating pieces of folklorical misinterpretation that causes a lot of miscommunication)
2) Consistency, repeatability, etc. are Good Things Indeed; and I agree that overholding is a Very Bad Thing however
- Should you really be counting in your head while trying to shoot?
- What is really magic about "5" or "7" or "9" or any other number for that matter?
- Why would you need to count in yoru head to avoid "holding and holding until teh sight picture steadied?" This is what's called the "false choice" argument in rhetoric OBTW
3) Anyhow, you should be a. focused intently on the desired behavior, which requires you to b. know what those desired behaviors are (p.s. overholding ain't one of them) and then c. execute those behaviors properly
Yep I've heard things like this- and used tehm to get through rough patches- but counting in your head is an unecessary distraction IMNSHO.
But, as usual, if it helps your specific condition . . .
Steve Swartz
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Ed Hall
(written with a smile)Some day I hope to be a good shooter, too...Elliott wrote:Steve Swartz, Ed Hall and you good shooters,...
I might need more explanation from you on this one, Steve. Although, technically, the memory cells are not within the muscle tissue, there is a comfort built into certain recurring muscle uses. Holding on a target at a specific height over an extended length of time will make it seem uncomfortable to approach a target at a different height. This can also be noticed in other aspects of our stance, etc. It really becomes apparent at a range where I shoot that has sloping asphalt on part of the firing line. We have some shooters who bring dirt to pile up for their leading foot so they're not pointing at the base of the targets while in their natural stance. I often find myself bending my trailing knee and have to correct it and adjust at my waist instead. Are you in disagreement with this, or the technical use of the word "memory" in this context?Steve Swartz wrote:1) Muscles don't have memory...
Back to the OP. Although I agree with Steve mostly on the counting aspect, I will add that your routine should be as consistent as you can make it. If that involves counting, there are some things to watch out for. I normally speak in positives to perform, instead of negatives to avoid, but I'll toss in both sides a bit here.
You should not allow your routine to become such that you count to "whatever number" and yank the trigger. But, you should create a trigger operation that takes the exact same amount of time to complete every time it is initiated. Your subconscious can do wonders if it can count on the trigger timing.
You should not be actively looking for an abort. You should be expecting everything to unfold perfectly. Aborting a shot should happen if you become aware that it didn't fire or something seems to be developing abnormally. For your shot routine always approach it, believing it will be perfect.
I would like to also suggest, as I have elsewhere, that if you wait until your sight picture has steadied to begin your trigger, you're too late. You should begin your trigger operation such that it completes when you reach your steadiest hold.
As a final don't and do - don't keep adjusting your hold as you progress on target. Do allow your hold to float naturally over your area of aim, undisturbed.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
This is very important and identifies the differences between those that think "the glass is half empty" and those that think "the glass is half full"You should not be actively looking for an abort. You should be expecting everything to unfold perfectly. Aborting a shot should happen if you become aware that it didn't fire or something seems to be developing abnormally. For your shot routine always approach it, believing it will be perfect.
This positive thinking can also help you overcome match nerves and chicken trigger.
Start your shot process believing you will do everything perfectly and that you will shoot a ten. This is far more important than developing a shot sequence to a metronome.
Mikey
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Albert B
counting
Steve and Ed,
Although I am a Sall Bore rifle shooter (but have shot many Service pistol and rifle matches) I do not entirely agree with your view on counting. The counting has several advantages. It is used to control the speed of the shot process - the timing and rithm of the separate actions. Because the brain is working no distracting thoughts can enter, and it works as a 'trigger' - the shooter is mentally focussed on the shooting sequence. Also a short musical tune of the same length is often used, playing in the back of the mind. This also gives a feel for a constant rithm and keeps the unwanted thought at bay.
It is up to the shooter to count from 1 to ... or backwards, as long as the actions have the same rithm.
Albert B
(The Netherlands)
Although I am a Sall Bore rifle shooter (but have shot many Service pistol and rifle matches) I do not entirely agree with your view on counting. The counting has several advantages. It is used to control the speed of the shot process - the timing and rithm of the separate actions. Because the brain is working no distracting thoughts can enter, and it works as a 'trigger' - the shooter is mentally focussed on the shooting sequence. Also a short musical tune of the same length is often used, playing in the back of the mind. This also gives a feel for a constant rithm and keeps the unwanted thought at bay.
It is up to the shooter to count from 1 to ... or backwards, as long as the actions have the same rithm.
Albert B
(The Netherlands)
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Ed Hall
Hi Albert,
I have used counting and mantras in my past as well, with some success along the way, for some of the same reasons you describe. But, the timing and rhythm can come from the operation as well as driving the operation, and I consider this a better process. If your counting drives the movements, you must take care not to let that count drive the finer movements. You tend to create that which you seek. If you look for an action at a specific count, you will tend to make that action occur on that count. This works alright for sustained type firing and can work OK, for precision. But I believe you can do better by visualization than by mantras and counting.
For Mikey:
The glass is always full - part liquid, part air...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
I have used counting and mantras in my past as well, with some success along the way, for some of the same reasons you describe. But, the timing and rhythm can come from the operation as well as driving the operation, and I consider this a better process. If your counting drives the movements, you must take care not to let that count drive the finer movements. You tend to create that which you seek. If you look for an action at a specific count, you will tend to make that action occur on that count. This works alright for sustained type firing and can work OK, for precision. But I believe you can do better by visualization than by mantras and counting.
For Mikey:
The glass is always full - part liquid, part air...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
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Albert B
timing
Ed,
I use the counting as a control device to see if all actions are going in the right timeframe, not as a tool to stear the actions. Especially during a final when our feeling of time seems to change and we start to hasten the actions due to the amount of adrinaline in the blood it gives more sense of the speed of my actions and I can slow down to my normal rithm.
Albert B
(The Netherlands)
I use the counting as a control device to see if all actions are going in the right timeframe, not as a tool to stear the actions. Especially during a final when our feeling of time seems to change and we start to hasten the actions due to the amount of adrinaline in the blood it gives more sense of the speed of my actions and I can slow down to my normal rithm.
Albert B
(The Netherlands)
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Steve Swartz
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elliott
counting for timing of trigger squeeze
Steve, Ed, etal.,
Your comments were all informative and helpful. However, I'm still at a loss. What does one think about when sighting. I've tried to keep a blank mind, but the thoughts, any thoughts, keep popping up. So if you doesn't count or review the firing procedure that one has developed from the personal shooting log, what thoughts does one think to stay calm, keep a fairly consistent timing, etc.?
Elliott
Your comments were all informative and helpful. However, I'm still at a loss. What does one think about when sighting. I've tried to keep a blank mind, but the thoughts, any thoughts, keep popping up. So if you doesn't count or review the firing procedure that one has developed from the personal shooting log, what thoughts does one think to stay calm, keep a fairly consistent timing, etc.?
Elliott
Elliott,
There is a good mind training technique which I picked up somewhere.
To help empty your mind of other thoughts coming in, do the following each day.
Sit quietly with your eyes closed and picture yourself drawing the letter "a" . I usually imaging it as being white chalk on a blackboard because I am that age. Modern shooters might try a black on a whiteboard.
Follow that up with b, c, d, e, f etc.
You probably won't get much further the first few times before another thought comes into your mind like "Gee this is easy, I wonder what this guy gets from the exercise?" "My wife will be home soon." "I must remember to tape CSI tonight."
Whenever another thought breaks into your thought process of visual drawing it is time to go back to "a".
Eventually things click (after a few weeks) and you can draw the whole alphabet. Then you have shown that you have mind control to exclude random thoughts coming into your head.
I am told jugglers learn a similar technique but in my case the hand-eye co-ordination would be more of a problem.
Hope it helps
Colin
There is a good mind training technique which I picked up somewhere.
To help empty your mind of other thoughts coming in, do the following each day.
Sit quietly with your eyes closed and picture yourself drawing the letter "a" . I usually imaging it as being white chalk on a blackboard because I am that age. Modern shooters might try a black on a whiteboard.
Follow that up with b, c, d, e, f etc.
You probably won't get much further the first few times before another thought comes into your mind like "Gee this is easy, I wonder what this guy gets from the exercise?" "My wife will be home soon." "I must remember to tape CSI tonight."
Whenever another thought breaks into your thought process of visual drawing it is time to go back to "a".
Eventually things click (after a few weeks) and you can draw the whole alphabet. Then you have shown that you have mind control to exclude random thoughts coming into your head.
I am told jugglers learn a similar technique but in my case the hand-eye co-ordination would be more of a problem.
Hope it helps
Colin
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Fred Mannis
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So, the objective of the exercise is to demonstrate to yourself that you can control what the conscious is doing/thinking? Sort of like visualizing the 10 you just shot to demonstrate/convince yourself that you know how to shoot 10's. Do I have it right? Sounds like a good exercise to try.ColinC wrote: Then you have shown that you have mind control to exclude random thoughts coming into your head.
I try to keep my mind 'empty' by concentrating on the doing, not the thinking. If I start thinking about what I am doing, I usually have to restat.
Fred
Think about the front sight, look for a crisp clear sight see the edges bright and sharp, there is nothing else that matters in the world apart from seeing the crispest clearest front sight possible...... and by the way it should be lined up nicely in that square notch called the back sight.
And before you know it the shot has gone off.
If you start thinking about something besides the front sight or it looks a bit blurry cancel and start again.
For me I know that I am not totally focussed on the front sight when I start shooting more 9's than 10's, and my group opens right up.
Mikey
And before you know it the shot has gone off.
If you start thinking about something besides the front sight or it looks a bit blurry cancel and start again.
For me I know that I am not totally focussed on the front sight when I start shooting more 9's than 10's, and my group opens right up.
Mikey
Fred wrote
The process helps to eliminate thoughts like, "That last shot was a 7. I must have snatched the trigger. This one will be better. Perhaps my finger is not on the trigger properly. I really need a 10." When thoughts like that come into your mind as you are trying to take a shot, it is time to put the pistol down before you shoot another 7 or worse.
That's exactly right. By being able to exercise mind control in excluding random thoughts, you can better focus on the job at hand - In this case a clear sight picture with focus on the front sight, hovering in your area of aim as you increase trigger pressure. BANG.So, the objective of the exercise is to demonstrate to yourself that you can control what the conscious is doing/thinking? Sort of like visualizing the 10 you just shot to demonstrate/convince yourself that you know how to shoot 10's. Do I have it right? Sounds like a good exercise to try.
The process helps to eliminate thoughts like, "That last shot was a 7. I must have snatched the trigger. This one will be better. Perhaps my finger is not on the trigger properly. I really need a 10." When thoughts like that come into your mind as you are trying to take a shot, it is time to put the pistol down before you shoot another 7 or worse.