What should we be scoring after months of shooting?
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DavidO.
What should we be scoring after months of shooting?
Just curious, I'm shooting between 509 to 515 after 4 months of shooting APsm 2 months with a top line AP. I'm not shooting on a daily basis, maybe 3 times a week if time permits. I have received basic coaching on stance, breathing and site picture (4 ring). I would like to know how other AP shooters are doing, especially LP10 owners. What are you averaging after months or years of shooting. The AP club recommends 550 scoring before competing in their circle next month.
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QUICKBRICK
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:51 pm
- Location: DEVON UK
the most important thing if you have only been shooting for 4 months is that you are improving each month and you are aware of what you are doing wrong.consistancy is more important- when you do start scoring 550 + is important you dont score 510's.if your scores are not improving ,get someone at your club to watch you as they can very often see your misstakes.it does take time to achieve good scores--as i said earlier , as long as you are improving each month theres not too much to worry about and dont be put off by comparing your scores to other shooters scores.
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Guest
Hello!
What?
I've never heard such statement... I'm about "DEPOSIT OF 550"!!!
Only competitons (participating) will allow You to open real results.
Of course, You can train and train hard... and may be You'll get 560, 570 or even 590... but if You haven't competition's experience,... then what for You're training?
Real Shooting Mastery is impossible without competitions... Do You know what we're doing here to bring up our results? We participate in competitions.
Good times I had 10-12 competitions a year... FP + AP + SP...
My way:
I started in 1997.
My first competition was after 2 months of trainings: 25m. 30 shots = 204
Later I had (short chronology):
-------1998-----------------------------2003
AP40=342, 347, 351, 356, 358, 373, 378
AP60=525, 523, 527, 532, 548, 554, 569
FP30=227, 224, 232, 237, 246, 259, 267
FP60=468, 470, 482, 499, 504, 511, 532
...
With my first shooting steps I had real troubles,... I haven't coach near me,... just pictures on the walls in my old club and members of national team around us (You can notice results - first years of FP are awful... as AP too). First 3 years - I just worked with my endurance, I tried to get maximum... at that time i didn't know about shooting psychology: results are conformable :-(
Wow, ruig... stop... :-)
Finally: I advise You to participate (so much as possible).
Sincerely
What?
I've never heard such statement... I'm about "DEPOSIT OF 550"!!!
Only competitons (participating) will allow You to open real results.
Of course, You can train and train hard... and may be You'll get 560, 570 or even 590... but if You haven't competition's experience,... then what for You're training?
Real Shooting Mastery is impossible without competitions... Do You know what we're doing here to bring up our results? We participate in competitions.
Good times I had 10-12 competitions a year... FP + AP + SP...
My way:
I started in 1997.
My first competition was after 2 months of trainings: 25m. 30 shots = 204
Later I had (short chronology):
-------1998-----------------------------2003
AP40=342, 347, 351, 356, 358, 373, 378
AP60=525, 523, 527, 532, 548, 554, 569
FP30=227, 224, 232, 237, 246, 259, 267
FP60=468, 470, 482, 499, 504, 511, 532
...
With my first shooting steps I had real troubles,... I haven't coach near me,... just pictures on the walls in my old club and members of national team around us (You can notice results - first years of FP are awful... as AP too). First 3 years - I just worked with my endurance, I tried to get maximum... at that time i didn't know about shooting psychology: results are conformable :-(
Wow, ruig... stop... :-)
Finally: I advise You to participate (so much as possible).
Sincerely
In my opinion nothing prepares you for shooting competitions like shooting competitions. I most certainly wouldn't hold off until shooting 550+ many people won't ever get there! I would strongly urge you to enter comps now. Get some competition practice in and compare those scores to each other - and don't be suprised when they are lower than your club scores. That will also fire up your enthusiasm and give you a bigger incentive to improve and train effectively.
Oh and like the previous poster I shot in my first comp in my first year.
Rob.
Oh and like the previous poster I shot in my first comp in my first year.
Rob.
DavidO:
After 6 months I got up to 546 with an MG-1. My scores started dropping perhaps from too much practice. I changed guns to LP10, dropped a bit more and now have returned to 530's at 13 months. I'm not sure why but suggest that, if this happens to you, don't give up. I tried several guns. All were nice in their own way but scores stayed about the same for me. At ranges the lighting seemed to have a strong effect on how well I scored. Like RobStubbs says, compete as often as possible.
After 6 months I got up to 546 with an MG-1. My scores started dropping perhaps from too much practice. I changed guns to LP10, dropped a bit more and now have returned to 530's at 13 months. I'm not sure why but suggest that, if this happens to you, don't give up. I tried several guns. All were nice in their own way but scores stayed about the same for me. At ranges the lighting seemed to have a strong effect on how well I scored. Like RobStubbs says, compete as often as possible.
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Steve Swartz
Three quick questions and an observation:
1) Has anyone helped you put together an organized training plan?
2) Does your training plan incorporate drills on specific sub-elements instead of just firing at a target?
3) Have you dedicated training sessions to maintaining sight alignment under a variety of conditions to include dry fire against blank and bullseye targets?
Finally
With an organized training plan that focuses almost entirely on the fundamentals, yes, you still need to shoot matches. In any case, even with "perfect practice" you won't begin seeing results until the basics get "burned in" to your subconscious. Even with a perfect training plan, programming your shooting will take many 1,000s of repetitions before you reach your potential.
Good Luck and welcome to the sport!
Steve Swartz
1) Has anyone helped you put together an organized training plan?
2) Does your training plan incorporate drills on specific sub-elements instead of just firing at a target?
3) Have you dedicated training sessions to maintaining sight alignment under a variety of conditions to include dry fire against blank and bullseye targets?
Finally
With an organized training plan that focuses almost entirely on the fundamentals, yes, you still need to shoot matches. In any case, even with "perfect practice" you won't begin seeing results until the basics get "burned in" to your subconscious. Even with a perfect training plan, programming your shooting will take many 1,000s of repetitions before you reach your potential.
Good Luck and welcome to the sport!
Steve Swartz
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nano
Re: What should we be scoring after months of shooting?
DavodO
I have a complet control of my scores, for about two years, shooting 10 times a month:
one month 490-510
two months 495-515
four month 505-520
six month 515-530
one year 530-540
Today (after 2 years) I am shooting 555 in competition and 560 in training, but i continue improving my scores.
If you want my complete chart of scores, send me an e-mail to ezamora@fps.gov.bo
I hoppe help you,
Nano
I have a complet control of my scores, for about two years, shooting 10 times a month:
one month 490-510
two months 495-515
four month 505-520
six month 515-530
one year 530-540
Today (after 2 years) I am shooting 555 in competition and 560 in training, but i continue improving my scores.
If you want my complete chart of scores, send me an e-mail to ezamora@fps.gov.bo
I hoppe help you,
Nano
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Luke P.
I'm training from 4 months, i never fired before. I bought a new izh-46m Baikal and start with it. I don't have any live coach, but i read about on forums and internet.
So my results:
I start "practicing": a lot of shot (500 a week) try finding the ten. No training no think. On july I reach 360-367 medium score and 355 first 40AP competitions. But in few days i missed all results. I must restart.
Now i'm training from 2 weeks!:
-3 times a week, about 300 shot, but i not control quantity, only quality.
-i keep cure of position, holding pistol in the most efficent way (izh grip is very unconfortable for my hand, but i find a position to control efficently the pistol movement), also i search and find a trigger god finger position to not move pistol on shot. (is a "uncommon" position but it don't move pistol when i pull the trigger).
-i make fire on blank target controlling trigger release and sight alignment. Only on blank target for 60-70 shoot.
-i don't resist and sometimes i had try 20-30 shoot on aiming target, and notice a difficult to set height of aiming constantly. I shoot a vertical line from 8 to 8 (so i think i had improved trigger control), and now i'm tring to resolve this problem, focusing on grip hold during firing on the black paper to find a natural point of aim.
-i had today (after about and 6-7 training times) reach newly 367-550 score in training.
-on 1 september there is a local 60AP competitions: i'll continue training only on blank paper to find perfect trigger control (also automatic-inconscious pull-releas), and natural standings, point of aim.
Here my 0.02$.
Every suggestion and opinion are very appreciate.
Thanks,
Luke P.
So my results:
I start "practicing": a lot of shot (500 a week) try finding the ten. No training no think. On july I reach 360-367 medium score and 355 first 40AP competitions. But in few days i missed all results. I must restart.
Now i'm training from 2 weeks!:
-3 times a week, about 300 shot, but i not control quantity, only quality.
-i keep cure of position, holding pistol in the most efficent way (izh grip is very unconfortable for my hand, but i find a position to control efficently the pistol movement), also i search and find a trigger god finger position to not move pistol on shot. (is a "uncommon" position but it don't move pistol when i pull the trigger).
-i make fire on blank target controlling trigger release and sight alignment. Only on blank target for 60-70 shoot.
-i don't resist and sometimes i had try 20-30 shoot on aiming target, and notice a difficult to set height of aiming constantly. I shoot a vertical line from 8 to 8 (so i think i had improved trigger control), and now i'm tring to resolve this problem, focusing on grip hold during firing on the black paper to find a natural point of aim.
-i had today (after about and 6-7 training times) reach newly 367-550 score in training.
-on 1 september there is a local 60AP competitions: i'll continue training only on blank paper to find perfect trigger control (also automatic-inconscious pull-releas), and natural standings, point of aim.
Here my 0.02$.
Every suggestion and opinion are very appreciate.
Thanks,
Luke P.
Compete in as many local matches as you can . Dont get hung up on yourself relative to others , it will kill a lot of your enjoyment . If you are consistently breaking 500 after four months , that doesn't sound too bad . Time to do a bit of dry fire training , separate from live practice . Keep your dry practice short so that it doesn't become too tedious , no more than twenty minute sessions .
Your scores will fluctuate a bit , don't get hung up about it . Dont be too surprised if your match scores are lower than practice scores . This is not at all uncommon .
Chris
Your scores will fluctuate a bit , don't get hung up about it . Dont be too surprised if your match scores are lower than practice scores . This is not at all uncommon .
Chris
The only real way to train for competitions is to actually shoot them. It's a different game to training / practising and you need to buil up the experience to perform to your own ability. I also find I get that extra buzz out of competing that you just don't get from training.
If you also shoot just against yourself then you can judge how much you are improving, not only score wise but nerves, comfort, attitude etc. Sure you can't help judging your scores alongside others but don't be put off by them or let them affect you.
Overall - enjoy your shooting !
Rob.
If you also shoot just against yourself then you can judge how much you are improving, not only score wise but nerves, comfort, attitude etc. Sure you can't help judging your scores alongside others but don't be put off by them or let them affect you.
Overall - enjoy your shooting !
Rob.
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jrmcdaniel
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:01 pm
- Location: Grantsville, MD
Reply to Luke:
You mention that your IZH-46 grip is uncomfortable -- they are intentionally made extra-large so that there is lots of wood to remove to make them fit your hand. Get a rasp or Dremel (electric rotary tool) and start removing everything that does not feel good. If you remove too much, rebuild that spot with some wood filler putty (almost anything will work but filler is water-soluable and easy to work with even your fingernail).
re vertical stringing -- there used to be targets with nothing but a thick line printed on them. You could mount them vertically or horizontally and shoot for "groups" (the center of the line). I do somewhat the same thing on a regular target and concentrate on holding either vertically or horizontally and letting what happens, happen in the other direction.
Best,
Joe
You mention that your IZH-46 grip is uncomfortable -- they are intentionally made extra-large so that there is lots of wood to remove to make them fit your hand. Get a rasp or Dremel (electric rotary tool) and start removing everything that does not feel good. If you remove too much, rebuild that spot with some wood filler putty (almost anything will work but filler is water-soluable and easy to work with even your fingernail).
re vertical stringing -- there used to be targets with nothing but a thick line printed on them. You could mount them vertically or horizontally and shoot for "groups" (the center of the line). I do somewhat the same thing on a regular target and concentrate on holding either vertically or horizontally and letting what happens, happen in the other direction.
Best,
Joe
Personally as a newbie shooter myself, I thought about getting to a competition with only having 3 months practice, but I did it anyway, and have done it since, as everybody says nothig can prepare you for it and they're right.
My scores started 476, 488, and now 511, right now I'm training for a tournament this sunday, hope I improve.
I also visualize tournaments the following way, 1 just take them as you would practice, and 2 the only one you have to compete against right now is yourself.
Think about it, unless there are other people starting with you (wich is not my case) everybody else has the lead in this.
Important if you got 3 flyers in a row, stop concentrate and think nothing of them, or just laugh about it.
Always concentrate on your groups and not your individual shots...
My scores started 476, 488, and now 511, right now I'm training for a tournament this sunday, hope I improve.
I also visualize tournaments the following way, 1 just take them as you would practice, and 2 the only one you have to compete against right now is yourself.
Think about it, unless there are other people starting with you (wich is not my case) everybody else has the lead in this.
Important if you got 3 flyers in a row, stop concentrate and think nothing of them, or just laugh about it.
Always concentrate on your groups and not your individual shots...
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Steve Swartz
It's always kind of interesting (to me anyways) when an old thread gets resurrected and we get to read it over again with a fresh perspective.
For what it's worth, I realized this time (Cuervo's comment about "thinking about groups" triggered it) something very important was left out of the previous thread:
[shouting for emphasis] "YOU SHOULD BE FOCUSING ONLY ON PROPER EXECUTION, NOT THOSE SILLY HOLES IN THE PAPER!!!!"
Okay, this will sound crazy, but what I mean is this:
Can you control where the holes show up in the paper? No. Holes in the paper are a result of your behavior- and are only a side effect of your technique. What you *can* control (well, influence at least) is your technique; your "behavior." You should be 100% focused on having intense focus on front sight, with sights perfectly aligned, with aligned sights settled in aiming area, then a perfect and subconscious release of the shot.
Where in that description is the paper mentioned? Nowhere.
>>You Don't Need A Piece Of Paper To Shoot A Perfect Ten!!!<<
Next time you go to train, shoot at a blank sheet of paper (just as a backdrop for sight alignment). On a sheet of paper at the firing point, write down the following columns:
Front Sight Focus
Perfect Alignment
Quality of Settle
Subconscious (perfect) Release
Follow Through
After each shot, write down a number from 1 (bad) to 5 (perfect) on your sheet of paper.
THAT is now your "score;" the only "score" that is meaningful.
OBTW- you should build your training program around improving your "scores" on those 5 (well, 6 really; trigger includes two elements) dimensions of shooting behavior.
Steve Swartz
For what it's worth, I realized this time (Cuervo's comment about "thinking about groups" triggered it) something very important was left out of the previous thread:
[shouting for emphasis] "YOU SHOULD BE FOCUSING ONLY ON PROPER EXECUTION, NOT THOSE SILLY HOLES IN THE PAPER!!!!"
Okay, this will sound crazy, but what I mean is this:
Can you control where the holes show up in the paper? No. Holes in the paper are a result of your behavior- and are only a side effect of your technique. What you *can* control (well, influence at least) is your technique; your "behavior." You should be 100% focused on having intense focus on front sight, with sights perfectly aligned, with aligned sights settled in aiming area, then a perfect and subconscious release of the shot.
Where in that description is the paper mentioned? Nowhere.
>>You Don't Need A Piece Of Paper To Shoot A Perfect Ten!!!<<
Next time you go to train, shoot at a blank sheet of paper (just as a backdrop for sight alignment). On a sheet of paper at the firing point, write down the following columns:
Front Sight Focus
Perfect Alignment
Quality of Settle
Subconscious (perfect) Release
Follow Through
After each shot, write down a number from 1 (bad) to 5 (perfect) on your sheet of paper.
THAT is now your "score;" the only "score" that is meaningful.
OBTW- you should build your training program around improving your "scores" on those 5 (well, 6 really; trigger includes two elements) dimensions of shooting behavior.
Steve Swartz
I assume you are talking about an air pistol. If so, put something in the basement (or a 35 foot hall way) and have at it!
Its a relief to hear someone talking about shooting something besides solid 8's 9's. I have been shooting about 2 months and still struggling to land every shot in the black. My most recent best target was an 83/10 shots.
I have been following a lot of the advice being offered on this sight. suggest you register as a permanent member and you'll get several emails as well. Shooting blank targets has helped tremendously and has me more focused on the sites and more focused on the mechanics of a clean consistent shot. By adding this I have moved from scores between 50-60 to 60-80/shots. Continuing down this avenue.
Its a relief to hear someone talking about shooting something besides solid 8's 9's. I have been shooting about 2 months and still struggling to land every shot in the black. My most recent best target was an 83/10 shots.
I have been following a lot of the advice being offered on this sight. suggest you register as a permanent member and you'll get several emails as well. Shooting blank targets has helped tremendously and has me more focused on the sites and more focused on the mechanics of a clean consistent shot. By adding this I have moved from scores between 50-60 to 60-80/shots. Continuing down this avenue.
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Guest
Thank you very much.Steve Swartz wrote:It's always kind of interesting (to me anyways) when an old thread gets resurrected and we get to read it over again with a fresh perspective.
[shouting for emphasis] "YOU SHOULD BE FOCUSING ONLY ON PROPER EXECUTION, NOT THOSE SILLY HOLES IN THE PAPER!!!!"
Okay, this will sound crazy, but what I mean is this:
Can you control where the holes show up in the paper? No. Holes in the paper are a result of your behavior- and are only a side effect of your technique. What you *can* control (well, influence at least) is your technique; your "behavior." You should be 100% focused on having intense focus on front sight, with sights perfectly aligned, with aligned sights settled in aiming area, then a perfect and subconscious release of the shot.
Where in that description is the paper mentioned? Nowhere.
>>You Don't Need A Piece Of Paper To Shoot A Perfect Ten!!!<<
Next time you go to train, shoot at a blank sheet of paper (just as a backdrop for sight alignment). On a sheet of paper at the firing point, write down the following columns:
Front Sight Focus
Perfect Alignment
Quality of Settle
Subconscious (perfect) Release
Follow Through
After each shot, write down a number from 1 (bad) to 5 (perfect) on your sheet of paper.
THAT is now your "score;" the only "score" that is meaningful.
OBTW- you should build your training program around improving your "scores" on those 5 (well, 6 really; trigger includes two elements) dimensions of shooting behavior.
Steve Swartz
I resume this post when i was reading some old discussion to make me advantage on training ;-).
After the first period (bad practicing, also so poor enjoy), now i have replaced it with training, and "every shoot must be completely satisfing me and giving me positive feedback". I had experimented 2-3 times the "perfect shoot", knowing it by the sensations on the few istants next trigger release: i have some exceptional beautiful feedback from shot while shooting, and the results are ... ----> a perfect mouche...
So i try every shot to be the same sensation, is not so simple, but i can now shoot many times with similar , minor , sensations.
The grip of baikal is for me loving-hate meeting: i cannot resize it myself (if i work on it too much is not possible in Italy replace it at reasonable price). So i'm adapting on it. Excuse me for my poor english, is very difficult for me telling the follow description but i'll try to explain my hand position on trigger and grip.
-The finger on the trigger is pulling with the finger part very next to the first articulation; i try this positions after various test, squeezing the trigger and watching the sigh movement: pulling the trigger with the part near articulation make no moving front sight.
-The tip of the fingers ring-like (4°) and medium(3°) exits outside from the grip , without pulling it. Baikal have a 90° angle under the tips, so i cant close the tips without pressing irregular on the grip, so i left the tips free pointing on left.
Is a position that control pistol movement and trigger release, so, also if is uncommon, i think it not so but bad for me.
Also, if i try resizing grip, i cant return before (grip are modified for ever).
So, i'm adapting on it.
Bye.
Luke P.
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Luke P.
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Steve Swartz
Not to decry any of the previous posts----but I find it hard to accept a "raw beginner" shooting 500+ after 2-3 months. These individuals must have so much raw talent and innate capabilities as to absolutely stun me. I am no expert, by far, but have been shooting and coaching for many years and have had only one cadet in many years pick up a pistol and shoot it so well in a very short time. The first thing we hear, and Steve will back me up on this, is "mass adjustment of grips", after 30 days of shooting----the complaining , cutting, sawing, filing & filling hystericallly begins. Outside of grips that are massivley outsized, the "beginner" hasn't a clue as to what he/she needs IMHO. Fooling with all kinds of trigger adjustments, is the next cry of the unwashed----adjusting the trigger weights to exact speciifications---is the next paranoia region that is sweated out. Woe betide the shooter whose trigger pull is 1.0000 grams away from the exact value called for in the almighty ISSF regs. Shoot a lot, have fun, don't worry about scores---hit the paper consistently and then refine from that point---KISMIF----keep it simple make it fun. Once consistent hits are on the paper then look for groups, and eventually adjust from that point. If your scores ( if you insist) drop all of a sudden---or level off---that's the learning curve----too much practise is worse than too little IMHO. HAVE FUN AND LEARN--AND BY ALL MEANS SHOOT COMPETITION WITHOUT FEELING YOU ARE GOING TO BE ASHAMED OF THE RESULTS. Take pride in what you do---things will get better---down the road.
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Guest
There is not a equation raw beginner- stupid-idiot and sub-normal! There is an equation poor training poor results...
Maybe you are many ill-fated or your students do not want to work, do not make it in order to enjoy themselves, but they shoot as a duty or as after-school activity.. there are so many possibilities.. maybe your are not so good coach... also...:) IMHO and only to talk here.
So, i can speak only for my selves: i make sacrifices to save the money to buy a good pistol to start, i WANT to start shooting to see what i can do. I never shoot before.. is a problem that i'm a raw beginner? no, as i can see it is a advantage! I like baikal grip and trigger and is 1,3 kg metals, because i have never test other guns, it shot more that i can do for this time, so ? let's training!
Why touching the trigger pull? Out of box baikal trigger is 350 grams, and i train with 350 grams for 3 month (without knowing it), and making 360 and up score. Before going on my first (and also unique) competitions, i veryfing it and i set it to 630 grams approximately... why? because i don't want to discuss with a judge from the heavy hand. I change it 2 days before competitions, and then shoot 355, not so far from training results.. so: is it so important trigger grams precision weight ? NO let's training!
Today afternoon i modified the grip, to keep it more confortable for me. It seems to be a good change :)
Bye,
Luke P.
Maybe you are many ill-fated or your students do not want to work, do not make it in order to enjoy themselves, but they shoot as a duty or as after-school activity.. there are so many possibilities.. maybe your are not so good coach... also...:) IMHO and only to talk here.
So, i can speak only for my selves: i make sacrifices to save the money to buy a good pistol to start, i WANT to start shooting to see what i can do. I never shoot before.. is a problem that i'm a raw beginner? no, as i can see it is a advantage! I like baikal grip and trigger and is 1,3 kg metals, because i have never test other guns, it shot more that i can do for this time, so ? let's training!
Why touching the trigger pull? Out of box baikal trigger is 350 grams, and i train with 350 grams for 3 month (without knowing it), and making 360 and up score. Before going on my first (and also unique) competitions, i veryfing it and i set it to 630 grams approximately... why? because i don't want to discuss with a judge from the heavy hand. I change it 2 days before competitions, and then shoot 355, not so far from training results.. so: is it so important trigger grams precision weight ? NO let's training!
Today afternoon i modified the grip, to keep it more confortable for me. It seems to be a good change :)
Bye,
Luke P.
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Luke P.