ISSF Rules - who takes care?!

Jose Rossy · Post by **Jose Rossy** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:02 pm

Mike, that's pretty good! ;^)

Grzegorz · Post by **Grzegorz** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:51 pm

I have started this discussion and really would like to give you any official answer from ISSF. Sorry - I am still waiting for any answer for my fax... In the meantime I have discussed with the coach of the Polish team Andrzej Kijowski. He told me that at least two top shooters of our team use "the glove". These are particularly usefull for FWB grips :-)

BTW, I was told that some shooters use a telescope with a small camera and monitor screen to observe results of their shots (when no electronic system is used, of course!). I have tried (see a photo below) and it works perfectly. In 3 position for example they just set a telescope (and camera) anywhere fixed on a target and monitor in comfortable position. No reason to touch a telescope even changing position! Great! BUT!!! Isn't an unfair advantage???

Grzegorz

PS. My web page is in Polish, anyway feel free to take a look on photos given there (as "inne zdjecia"):

http://omega.pol.lublin.pl/lzss/azs/azs.htm

Grzegorz · Post by **Grzegorz** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:26 pm

I have RE-SENT the fax message a few days ago and still have no answer... That's probably how the ISSF Headquarter works...
So still looking for...

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:14 pm

Grzegorz wrote:I have RE-SENT the fax message a few days ago and still have no answer... That's probably how the ISSF Headquarter works...
So still looking for...

I am surprised that you have not had an answer but still want to know where you got the idea that a second glove was not allowed. Has there been a case of a properly qualified ISSF jury disallowing them at a major match.

Jose Rossy · Post by **Jose Rossy** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:21 pm

Grzegorz wrote:BTW, I was told that some shooters use a telescope with a small camera and monitor screen to observe results of their shots (when no electronic system is used, of course!). I have tried (see a photo below) and it works perfectly. In 3 position for example they just set a telescope (and camera) anywhere fixed on a target and monitor in comfortable position. No reason to touch a telescope even changing position! Great! BUT!!! Isn't an unfair advantage???

Why would it be an unfair advantage?

Anyone else is free to rig a similar system.

If the ISSF is worried about escalating costs in a video system war, then re-write the rules to specifically outlaw such a system. THAT is the only fair way, otherwise any innovation will be immediately shut down by people like Val who would protest ANYTHING out of the ordinary as providing an unfair advantage.

That position is simply ridiculous and indefensible.

Here's the funny thing Gregorio. Here in the USA, smallbore and centerfire rifle shooting is governed by the rules of the US National Rifle Association. Those rules also contain a rule that forbids anything that is "contrary to the spirit of the rules". Hardly anyone EVER invokes that rule in a protest unless the violation is outrageous.

You guys might want to learn something from that.

Val · Post by **Val** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:34 am

Allow me to chime back in.

First of all, I'd like to refute the statement several people have made that supposedly I would protest the use of the glove. I would not do so because although I do believe that it provides advantage, it is minimal. However, I would not use it for the same reason.

Also, resorting to sarcasm and attacking personalities is counterbroductive to healthy debate, reducing discussion into flaming. Before this thread I was under impression that members of this forum are more mature when it comes to defending their position. oh well... at least now I still think that most are.

I've got more or less official answer from a member of ISSF technical committee, substantiated by a member of the Rifle committee, which is pretty much as I expected it to be: although *my* interpretation of the rules is... [I guess I don't have to mention it again : )], I wouldn't expect ISSF to enforce the "against-the-spirit" rule on such minor issue.

Thanks to Mr. Loyd G. Crow and Bill Krilling for their ruling on this, which hopefully will allow this thread rest in peace.

In answer to your question on a "trigger hand" glove, I contacted Bill Krilling, a Member of the ISSF Rifle Committee who lives near me. He feels, as I do that there would be no Shooter advantage with the Trigger Hand" glove. It is not mentioned in the ISSF Rules and we have seen them used in many International Competitions, especially in colder climates. They are usually simular to a driving glove and we have never seen them forbidden in a competition.

Feel free to go ahead and say how great it is that a-holes like me are not in charge of the rules.

Grzegorz · Post by **Grzegorz** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:34 pm

I am pretty surprised by some posts in this subject. My post entitled "ISSF Rules - who takes care?!" gathered attention of about 2670 views and 65 replies that is - if you would like to verify - one of the best "score" on the Forum (even more than Emmons letter - that is not correct fact but...). That means (at least) that the subject is of the interest of the shooting community.
I am not against any scientific work to improve a score. Yeah, I even try to work on it! The only reason I have posted this photo is - I need to be sure that a second glove is allowed... As I have promised I sent a fax to the ISSF Headquarter. And finally I have gotten an answer (see bottom to the text.
BTW, I am Grzegorz not Gregorio - yeah, at least you do not want to be called "Jerzy Ruski", mr Jose Rossy, .... :-)

Lee Sellers · Post by **Lee Sellers** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:12 pm

So in other word, as was said by several very early in this thread, there is no rule against the glove so it is allowed. Seem pretty straightforward and simple to my mind at least.

Interesting thread, I like seeing how others think. We can always learn from that.

Thanks for posting the fax, and the initiation and follow through on getting the answer. It's appreciated.

Lee

Bob Foth · Post by **Bob Foth** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:58 pm

Wow!
A written reply. Print it out and carry it to matches.

At the 1990 World Championships in Moscow, American Bill Dodd was NOT allowed to use a glove on his right hand. The only "rule" cited was about not doing anything to the rifle to enhance the grip (not sure of the wording back then).
Bill had worn it at other UIT events and later used it successfully as well.

Val · Post by **Val** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:47 pm

Grzegorz,

If it is not much trouble, can you please post a hi-res grayscale version of the scan suitable for printing. A PDF would be even better.

Thank you.

Jose Rossy · Post by **Jose Rossy** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:50 pm

Grzegorz wrote:BTW, I am Grzegorz not Gregorio - yeah, at least you do not want to be called "Jerzy Ruski", mr Jose Rossy, .... :-)

All in good, clean fun.

Grzegorz · Post by **Grzegorz** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:36 am

Of course, I will locate this fax message as pdf file on our server, but please forgive me - I will do that next week... Tomorrow we go to the Final National Cup in Poland and will also present this message to our technical commitee. Of course, my shooter shots also (Prone 50m, 3P and AR60) so I am bit busy :-)

Grzegorz · Post by **Grzegorz** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:37 am

Sorry for a delay, I have finally made a scan and the ISSF answer is available in more suitable version for printout. I do not post an automatic download (img option). Just click on the link given below.

Best rgds,
Grzegorz

PS. Why you forget about the High Noon Postal Competition? At least on this (N) side of the World early coming evenings are good posibility to practice ;-)

http://omega.pol.lublin.pl/lzss/gg22.jpg