TargetTalk

A forum to talk about Olympic style shooting, rifle or pistol, 10 meters to 50 meters, and whatever is in between. Hosted by Pilkguns.com
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:04 am 
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Dear forum readers,

We want to introduce you with KINETIC - the first 3D body motion tracking system for shooters!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATUBIOhtrNI

Comparing to any other system (SCATT, TRACE or Mantis X) KINETIC tracks beyond your weapon!

The system includes 4 individual sensors. Sensors are fit to key parts of the arm such as: wrist, forearm, upper arm and shoulder.

Sensors are capable to locate the position of each part of the arm in 3D space. 3D motion capture reproduces your entire shot routine with less than 1 mm resolution! From gun raise through aiming and triggering to follow through.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgofBVAN01U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICKKQH2qE-k

3D position data are accompanied by acceleration and other key metrics. System compares metrics between the 4 sensors and allows to identify the exact point of error. It can be wrist, elbow, shoulder or lack of general stability etc.

The system can also identify direction of movement for each individual joint. For example you can measure wrist position during aiming, triggering and follow-through. This highlights such mistakes as trigger jerking, wrist break and recoil anticipation.

Key benefits of KINETIC are:

1) 3D motion analysis
2) no limits on caliber, target or distance
3) works with all types of weapons
4) movement freedom with bluetooth connection
5) no extra weight on the weapon
6) real-time feedback and error diagnosis

First product will launch for ISSF and IPSC pistol shooters and Skeet will follow soon.

To receive news and information about launch date sign up for our newsletter:
http://kineticshooting.us14.list-manage ... b7315465df

Best regards,

KINETIC
http://www.kineticshooting.com


Attachments:
KINETIC In use.jpg
KINETIC In use.jpg [ 75.55 KiB | Viewed 925 times ]

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:10 am 
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Cool device. But I cannot imagine application or benefits in training process.
Usual hobby shooter - capable of self-analysis - after a couple of months of training can feel and control good her/his body and muscles. "The device" is already available --> vestibular system.
For example if air pistol muzzle wobbled after the shot - I know - muscle control/tone rapidly changed after (or during) the shot. The things are very simple.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:21 am 
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And why are don't publish more info about you?

"We are Trace-Team.. have a new idea.." something like that.


Attachments:
2017-11-07 08_19_41-Daniels Korens - Product Manager @ TRACE _ Crunchbase.png
2017-11-07 08_19_41-Daniels Korens - Product Manager @ TRACE _ Crunchbase.png [ 55.65 KiB | Viewed 658 times ]
2017-11-07 08_19_08-view-source_https___www.kineticshooting.com.png
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:10 am 
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The sensor attached to back of the wrist is going to create a completely false position of the hand gripping the pistol grip and therefore cause an error in the shot placement and the feel of the grip. The sensors on the arm muscles are probably going to create some sort of additional support along with the body strap and the strap over the shoulders.
Do you have any results and evidence from top class shooters who tested your system and can categorically state that the sensors do not cuase a change to the feel of the shooting position?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:49 am 
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ruig wrote:
Cool device. But I cannot imagine application or benefits in training process.
Usual hobby shooter - capable of self-analysis - after a couple of months of training can feel and control good her/his body and muscles. "The device" is already available --> vestibular system.
For example if air pistol muzzle wobbled after the shot - I know - muscle control/tone rapidly changed after (or during) the shot. The things are very simple.


Hi ruig,

Thanks for your comments!

Some benefits and capabilities of the system are already listed in the main post. However it's also important to emphasize here that target shooting is all about consistency and reproducibility of the shots. As you mentioned such consistency is a result of body and muscle control.

The benefit of using such system in the training process is to actually measure and record such consistency and reproducibility with scientific precision.

Of course vestibular system can tell a lot, however there is a reason why coaches and athletes practise with electronic shooting training devices. It's all about data and looking for patterns to understand what distuinguish a good shot from a bad shot and how then to reproduce a good shot over and over again to achieve the top results.

In our case the system captures all the finest movements in 3D space and provides a record of the entire shot routine from gun raise to follow through. Which we can then compare to records of other shots. From coach perspective this provides the entire set of data to work with. Just to name few examples of possibilities:

1) Gun raise speed and target approach consistency (accelleration, decelleration and time);
2) Hand and individual joint stability (wrist, elbow, shoulder) across the entire shot routine - aiming, trigerring, follow-through. Also the system can capture the exact direction of joint movements.
3) Consistency of time intervals between the shots and gun raise for rapid fire
4) Exact visual representation of arm movements in 3D space with less than 1mm resolution to show to athlete and highlight the point of error for fast visual feedback during training
5) Recoil control, to check how quickly and efficiently the gun is teruned to point of aim in rapid fire

To summarize - the system provides endless opportunities in terms of data it can capture and various analytical and statistical parameters and charts then can be build on top of this data.

It would be interesting to know your opinion on what data and metrics would be useful to capture for particular shooting disciplines?

Best regards,

KINETIC

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:55 am 
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ruig wrote:
And why are don't publish more info about you?

"We are Trace-Team.. have a new idea.." something like that.


Hi ruig,

What you have found is partially true. The project actually came to life as a partnership between two teams one of them being TRACE Team and www.hackmotion.com.

More official information will definitely follow as the project develops. :)

Best regards,

KINETIC

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www.kineticshooting.com


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:02 am 
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John Marchant wrote:
The sensor attached to back of the wrist is going to create a completely false position of the hand gripping the pistol grip and therefore cause an error in the shot placement and the feel of the grip. The sensors on the arm muscles are probably going to create some sort of additional support along with the body strap and the strap over the shoulders.
Do you have any results and evidence from top class shooters who tested your system and can categorically state that the sensors do not cuase a change to the feel of the shooting position?


Hi John,

The system was extensively tested with Great Britain national pistol team and coaches. Positive feedback we received from coaches and athletes is actually the reason why we started to work on bringing this system to the market.

The straps are only fixed to individual body parts and do not interfere with individual joint stability. From the feedback received from the athletes the interference with the normal shooting routine is not observed.

Could you please comment a bit more on your concern on wrist sensor placement? Unfortunately I didn't understand the part of the error in shot placement?

Best regards,

KINETIC

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Achieve The Flawless Shot!
www.kineticshooting.com


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:35 am 
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Location: UK
During this summer, a prototype instrument was developed for ISSF Pistol shooters. It tracks the movement and also the rate of acceleration (and deceleration) for the shoulder, upper arm, wrist and hand of the athlete during their entire shot routine.

Whilst designed for all ISSF pistol disciples, this instrument brings some very exciting possibilities for the 25m pistol events. It won’t replace existing electronic trainers but is designed to provide athletes and coaches a more detailed picture of movement and control with immediate feedback on the range. Whilst a totally standalone instrument, it can, of course, be used at the same time as an existing electronic trainer.

Until now, this detail of motion could only be recorded in a biomechanics lab. The leading GBR athletes have tested this instrument whilst live firing at 10m/25m/50m ranges at Bisley (Surrey, UK) for all ISSF pistol disciplines. Their feedback and data collected has helped refine the instrument to ensure that it will not interfere or influence the shot routine, and from the data collected, help develop and refine the analytics that can be displayed for immediate feedback. The raw data is obviously available to the athlete and coach to perform their own detailed analysis or research.

The speed and special motion of the raise is critical - especially for 25m pistol. In the case of Rapid Fire Pistol, the same is true as is the transition and recoil management for the remaining shots of the series. Developing time management within the shot routine and consistency of that shot routine is essential for an athlete to progress. This instrument is designed to contribute to that process.

Sports science research has focused on the balance of the athlete by means of balance platforms of varying sophistication and of course existing electronic trainers that provide very valuable accessible tools of the proxy of motion of the athlete. This instrument goes one step back to the origin of key elements of that motion during the entire shot routine, as well as recording the individual movements of the shoulder, upper arm, wrist and hand. Existing electronic trainers only record the final stages of the aiming process for pistol, as coaches, we need the entire picture from the initial lift of the pistol.

I have some short videos of this testing that can be uploaded where you can see the athlete and computer monitor at the same time. If somebody can kindly advise how .MOV files can be uploaded to this forum.

As development now goes into alpha testing, additional graphs and analytics are being designed. The resolution (accuracy) was so good, I am looking forward to testing measurement of the wrist in relation to hand movement before and during firing.

Whilst this was probably a good and constructive idea for the pistol shooting community, the instrument only becomes a commercial possibility through the investment and collaboration between the good people of TRACE and HACKMOTION - it has been named KINETIC.

More information and videos will be available in the coming weeks. Many thanks to my GBR coaching colleagues the pistol shooters of GBR and Army squads for your help with the testing.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:49 am 
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If it were to influence the shot routine John, the entire project would be pointless, and we would not have even bothered with a prototype stage! Sam Gowin was one of the testers (he came 4th at the CSF last week in Brisbane AUS). I have some good video clips of Sam life firing with this prototype so you can see, in real time the graphical analytics.

Thankfully, materials science is now on our side and unlike the 1980’s where Piddubnyy [1] wished to understand and measure the relationship between the wrist and hand of a pistol athlete, such resolution was not a possibility and certainly not using sensors at only a few grammes each!

[1] Piddubnyy, A (2003). The Vital Problems of Pistol Shooting. ISSF News, 2003(1).


John Marchant wrote:
The sensor attached to back of the wrist is going to create a completely false position of the hand gripping the pistol grip and therefore cause an error in the shot placement and the feel of the grip. The sensors on the arm muscles are probably going to create some sort of additional support along with the body strap and the strap over the shoulders.
Do you have any results and evidence from top class shooters who tested your system and can categorically state that the sensors do not cuase a change to the feel of the shooting position?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Location: Bedfordshire, England
Thanks Paul for your valued input.
The reason for my question was purely from the online videos, the sensor retaining band around the shooters wrist looks as if it passes between the hand and the pistol grip, which I thought might have made a change to the feel of the grip.
However as you have indicated that the system has been trialled by many top pistol shooters, my perception of the positioning of the sensors straps must have been completely wrong.
Hopefully we will soon get the opportuntiy to put the system into use.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:27 pm 
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John. Detailed testing will continue to be with the national and home country athletes to provide a cross-section of athletes and input from ISSF Pistol coaches.

Any training device is only as good as the staffs working with athletes to provide contextual interpretations. Accordingly, a good knowledge of the demands of the discipline shot routine is essential.

We are planning instructional videos that will help new users of this device get the most out of their training and that will obviously contain technical elements of the discipline specific shot routines.

I’ll post links to videos of testing of the next stage in a week or so.

Paul


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:10 pm 
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Hmmm very interesting, however should there not be a "3D" sensor also placed close to the front sight too?

And using a Glock? in the sample photo...tsk tsk.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:36 pm 
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The instrument can be used stand-alone OR at the same time as your existing Electronic Trainer. A low cost laptop could easily run both at the same time.

A later development could be an interface to electronic trainers.

Of course, a researcher could take raw data from this instrument as well as an electronic trainer to perform as-hoc analytics.

Outside of the ISSF world - Motion and recoil management are important pistol skills and having a means to objectively measure motion and management of recoil provides trainers the means to provide better and immediate feedback to the people they are working with. If this helps makes such projects viable for our ISSF shooting friends, so much the better.

Xman wrote:
Hmmm very interesting, however should there not be a "3D" sensor also placed close to the front sight too?

And using a Glock? in the sample photo...tsk tsk.


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