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 Post subject: Scoring Analysis
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:09 pm
Posts: 124
I've joined one of those Internet Postal Match competitions to see how my scores compared to others, and how much I am able to improve over the course of time. I was struck in my recent two pistol matches with how different my scores seemed to the others in those disciplines. I guess I'm trying to discover my weaknesses to improve on them. In my recent 10M AP match of 60 shots I ranked 3rd this month with a 525 23X overall. The first and second were 529 and 544 and both were reporting 9X. So I'm scoring a whole lot more X's (almost 3 times those of the gold and silver competitors) but seem to be more sloppy with my spread otherwise(?). In stark contrast to that my 25M SP scores this month were disappointing. There I'm only asked to shoot half an NRA course 10/10/10 and only managed a 276 3X. Ironically the 3X were all in timed fire (5 shots in 10 seconds). So there I don't seem to be as precise, but my scoring feels more solid. The 1st place in that discipline shot a 291 8X. I was disappointed in that I'm usually more accurate (more X's) in SP, especially slow fire where I didn't even put any into the X ring this time. I was pleased with the AP X's but just felt sloppy in my spreads, even worse with two or three flyers outside the black. Both competitions are open. In AP I'm using iron sights, in SP a red dot. Generally in AP I'm struggling to break into the 90's on a 10 shot target. More typically I'm in the mid to high 80's. With SP I seem to easily stay in the low 90's.

Any suggestions from seasoned veterans on what I should be working on based on results? I definitely saw my AP scores go up, or rather I started getting far more X's, when I switched to a dedicated shooting prescription (+.75 over my close-up so the front sight is tack sharp and I can no longer get sharp focus on the target but can see where the bullseye sits).

Thanks for any input.


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analasys
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:32 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:31 pm
Posts: 850
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Time to be cranky! Scores don't matter. Groups matter. Once you have satisfactory groups it's a small matter to place the center of your group on the center of the bull.

If your problem is too-large groups, there are too many factors at play to expect much help at long distance. You'll be better off going to some live matches, letting other shooters see you shoot and then discussing the results on target. Posting pix of your targets here may provide some insight but still falls way short of having somebody ask you face to face things like: "How firmly are you holding the pistol?" or "Where was the front sight when the shot broke?" or "Where did you call this one?"

As for me, getting older I don't shoot groups. More like patterns.


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analasys
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:09 pm
Posts: 124
william wrote:
Time to be cranky! Scores don't matter. Groups matter. Once you have satisfactory groups it's a small matter to place the center of your group on the center of the bull.

If your problem is too-large groups, there are too many factors at play to expect much help at long distance. You'll be better off going to some live matches, letting other shooters see you shoot and then discussing the results on target. Posting pix of your targets here may provide some insight but still falls way short of having somebody ask you face to face things like: "How firmly are you holding the pistol?" or "Where was the front sight when the shot broke?" or "Where did you call this one?"

As for me, getting older I don't shoot groups. More like patterns.


Thank you sir. I speak cranky, so no worries. Working on the old part of that too. I do plan on participating in a local match. This one is only held once a month on weekends and I've unfortunately had conflicting commitments for the past two or three matches. I should reach out at the range I shoot at to see if anyone coaches there. Good advice.

FWIW, I'll post a few targets here and see if it yields any useful suggestions, but I do understand there is only so much one can suggest without actually being there and watching. Regardless, thanks for taking the time to respond. I appreciate the input.


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analasys
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:09 pm
Posts: 124
As far as groups go, I'm not sure how well I'm doing as I don't have much to go on other than my own improvement. Even more of an argument to get out to competitions I guess. Here are a few recent targets:

Practice target (this is a B8 and not a B16 as it should be). 50 shots slow fire at 25 yards. Red dot. Offhand.

Imageupload jpg

Here are three AP targets from my recent postal match that shows pretty typical groups (patterns ;-) for me:
Imagefree photo upload

Imagefree upload image

Imageupload gif


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analasys
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:20 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:20 pm
Posts: 5068
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Unlike William, I'm a warm loveable human being who NEVER gets cranky.

Anyway, your targets look good. Eliminating the "spazz" shots will bring your score way up. I suspect that it is a common problem, especially among older shooters (so they tell me). I would beware of a lapse in concentration or "giving up" on a shot.

When shooting a self-scoring postal match, remember that your competition may not know how to score or is "optimistic" about close shots, so don't take the scores too much to heart. BTW there are no "X"s in air pistol. The inner 10 ring is for an electronic scoring machine. I don't know what AP target you are displaying, but it's not an approved one.


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analasys
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:23 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:31 pm
Posts: 850
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Rover wrote:
Unlike William, I'm a warm loveable human being who NEVER gets cranky.


Buddy, you got that right.

Raymond Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analasys
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:49 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Posts: 374
Rover, im stealing your 'spaz shots' term. Focus on the group and forget the spaz shots!


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analasys
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:09 pm
Posts: 124
william wrote:
Rover wrote:
Unlike William, I'm a warm loveable human being who NEVER gets cranky.


Buddy, you got that right.

Raymond Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.


I started to tear up a bit I think. How embarrassing. You guys should just get a room.

Yeah, I think the old-guy/momentary loss of concentration is at play on those spaz shots for sure. I've been trying to be mindful of when its time to give up on shot and find I'm doing that more often. Obviously not often enough.

The targets are Gamo AR-1. I didn't know they were not approved. I'll have to pick up some NRA version...from pics they look the same but maybe not. I noticed they offer one with a red-dot at the 10 spot - are those "approved"? I seem to recall reading that certain colors were verboten. Yes I assumed that center represents X's and the postal match scoring input actually asks the number of X's...perhaps they just are asking for 10's. Thanks for the skooling.

I appreciate all the feedback.... and sarcasm and crankiness. I do like to smile now and then. But jeez, the tears...now that was a bit much!


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analasys
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:16 pm
Posts: 345
Location: Santa Fe, Argentina
Jaxon:

The targets you're shooting at are not the official ISSF targets, in which there is a definitively visible circle for the inner then and the visible black extends to the 7-ring, not the six-ring.

What you are scoring as "X"s are in fact only tens. Are you sure you're using the same targets that everybody else in your Postal match league do use?

Because that would explain a lot. A shooter using the ISSF target will score an "X" only when hitting an inner ten.

I suspect this could be the case because is very rare to score 544 (4 points over a 9-ring average shot) with only 9 tens, but very posible if they were more tens (to compensate for those nasty 8's, 7's and worse that appears unannouncedly) BUT only 9 of those were inner ones.

My two cents.


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analasys
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:57 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:20 pm
Posts: 5068
Location: Scottsdale AZ
The reason I questioned the targets is that they may not be giving you true results. No, official targets don't have red centers. The best ones to get are the Euro ISSF approved ones. They're the same size as the NRA targets, but are much better quality.

BTW I know you weren't belittling "Weepin' Willie."


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analysis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:09 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:13 am
Posts: 212
Location: North London, Ohio
http://www.kruger-us-targets.com/index. ... -usas.html


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analasys
PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:12 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:20 pm
Posts: 5068
Location: Scottsdale AZ
Who is Raymond Shaw?


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analasys
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:47 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:31 pm
Posts: 850
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Rover wrote:
Who is Raymond Shaw?


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056218/?ref_=nv_sr_3


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analasys
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:49 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:09 pm
Posts: 124
Rover wrote:
The reason I questioned the targets is that they may not be giving you true results. No, official targets don't have red centers. The best ones to get are the Euro ISSF approved ones. They're the same size as the NRA targets, but are much better quality.


So these "Modified" NRA B-40 targets would not be acceptable in competition? [url]http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/National_Target_Single_Bull_Red_Center_Air_Pistol_Target/1049
[/url]


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analysis
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:26 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:20 pm
Posts: 5068
Location: Scottsdale AZ
I've shot on those targets in practice, they're not high quality, but I doubt if anyone would complain if you used them. In everything but the red center, they're "normal." I wouldn't buy any more when yours are gone, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analysis
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:44 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:01 pm
Posts: 15
I wouldn't get used to having a contrasting center dot, especially if you ever plan on shooting a 'real' competitions. Having a smaller center would make it easier to line up a shot I'd think. At least with standard open sights. Where are you doing postal matches? They must have some pretty relaxed rules to not have rejected you AP target.


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analysis
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:20 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:09 pm
Posts: 124
Thank you guys. I appreciate your taking your time to share your experience and knowledge...and humor! I'm going to have to watch The Manchurian Candidate again.


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 Post subject: Re: Scoring Analysis
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:09 pm
Posts: 124
Oh, and this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIiOXff8A5Y


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