TargetTalk

A forum to talk about Olympic style shooting, rifle or pistol, 10 meters to 50 meters, and whatever is in between. Hosted by Pilkguns.com
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:26 pm 
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Location: Lisbon, Portugal
renzo wrote:
Being things as they are, what I tried was to determine when should I grant an "inner ten" when using the electronic scorer, (...)
Please try to understand my predicament...

There is no quick way. If you are scoring the targets in tenths, then the software disregards the inner tens as it should.
The only way to have both, is to either run the targets that scored 10.3 again using integers or manually using the .22 plug (for 50m rifle).
You only have to worry about those 10.3, because any less is a ten, and above is an inner ten.

Depending on your national rules, and from what you wrote, I would discard the tenths, except for the final.

Hope this helps


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:38 pm 
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Location: Santa Fe, Argentina
Yes, that seems logical and practical.

Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:21 pm 
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Location: Ruislip, UK
renzo wrote:
There are certain circumstances in which you have to stray from the strict ISSF rules. As an example: 50 m. Prone Rifle and Air Rifle are to be scored in tenths all the way, that is, quali and OF.

I am now going to confuse things even more.

I can fully understand why coaches in many countries want their domestic matches scored in tenths. It enables them to compare scores achieved with those at top internationals.

The problem is however that rule 6.3.3.2 says:-
"Rifle and Pistol Elimination and Qualification Round competitions are scored in full ring values, except that in ISSF Championships, Elimination and Qualification Round competitions for 10m Air Rifle Men and Men Junior, 10m Air Rifle Women and Women Junior, 50m Rifle Prone Men and Men Junior and 50m Prone Women and Women Junior events must be scored in decimal values."

Rule 6.1.2.a says:-
ISSF Championships are shooting sport competitions in the Olympic Games, World Championships, World Cups, World Cup Finals, Continental Championships, Continental Games, Junior World Championships and Junior World Cups that are supervised by the ISSF in accordance with the ISSF General Regulations, 3.2.1, and these Rules"

For minor international matches, national matches and below the rules therefore say that 50m Prone Rifle elimination and qualification rounds should be scored in full ring, not decimal, values.

Here in the UK most of the larger domestic matches ignore rule 6.3.3.2 and use decimal scoring.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:53 am
Posts: 350
Off topic, but David, if you ever move to the United States, go to law school and get an L.L.M. in taxation. We need people like you to fix our tax code. I'm 100% serious.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:19 pm 
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I hope some of you with enough influence will change targets alltogether. They were made in mind to make the maximum score "almost" possible, but unreachable.

In air pistol, the integers are waaaay to crude.
Shooting 9.9 is about 4 times as precise as 9.0, yet both are scored the same.
When shooting tenths, they're too small and it's difficult for beginners to to see if it's a 10.3 or 10.5 if they don't shoot electronic.

I think in AP, the 10 must be at least twice as big in diameter and then always scored in tenths, then you could actually print the tenth.

I've shot a series of "only" 94 in competition, with 3 x 9.9 and all other nines close to the 10. It may have been scored close to a 100.0 in tenths. A typical 94 Series scores something like 97.0 in tenth. Shooting 97.0 in finals is death, you'll fly out first or second, shooting a 100.0 keeps you in the medals.
Losing 3 points due to a flawed system is retarded. Kind of unfair being punished for shooting better.

I guess those at the top don't care much for the average paper club.

TLDR: you can shoot two series of exactly 90 points. One of those series could be up to 4 times as precise as the other, because of how big the rings are. That's super retarded.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:35 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 2329
Location: Valencia County 4-H, NM USA
hundert wrote:
I guess those at the top don't care much for the average paper club.

Shooting Air, Smallbore (Rifle and Pistol) and scoring to 10ths is very easy these days ... all the while shooting affordable paper.

Here in the US, many programs use the ORION Scoring system. An inexpensive page scanner (I just got a backup for my club off ebay for $132) and th einexpensive license and you can be scoring to 10ths.

(And no, I'm not a schill for Shooter's tech ... just noting it does not have to be hard or expensive)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:14 pm 
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now why would an average joe be buying some expensive machine? I can tell 10.4 from 10.5 with my eyes, but the average joe wants to know his result instantly without having to use some machine. Many clubs have them, but you're not getting them after training, they're mostly used for competition. And if every club buys one and puts it to use for everyone, staying for longer to count the shots seems bothersome, you want instant feedback. What if someone is in front of you, using it too, are you gonna be standing in line? It just doesn't work.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:28 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:16 am
Posts: 153
Location: Central Texas
I ended up getting an app for my phone called TargetScan, that can score in integer or decimal. It will read a target much like Orion and generate shot plots, scores etc. No it's not electronic scoring, you've got to let it scan the target after the shot. However when shooting Air Rifle on a 12 bull target, it's quick and easy to get 10 shots on record in decimal. For something like free pistol where it'd be rare to be stacking shots on top of each other it works great for 5-10 shots (depending on how well you shoot), on each target. Best $5 I've spent in a long time.

-Jenrick


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:01 am
Posts: 108
Location: New Zealand
renzo wrote:

As a fellow judge I ask you for advice (or opinion) in a matter that I had to deal in a match today, as I know you to be more knowledgeable and up-to-date with rule interpretations.

We were using for the first time - officially - our new DISAG scorer for paper targets, which was an enormous advance when scoring in tenths. As we haven´t set an interface with our match management program, we slipped the targets and set the machine to print the score on the paper, and then loaded the values in our spreadsheet (I hope our technician will sort this step promptly).

Anyways, I set the scorer to read in tenths even when the classification round was final and scored in natural points, because I needed to know if a hit was a "10" or an "inner ten". In all the refreshment courses I took we were always told that the only case that could bring any protest was in air rifle (we are talking about scoring with gauges) as the only rule to define an inner ten is to have the center point completely obliterated.

Obviously, the DISAG can´t "see" if the point is present or not, so we used the common practice of considering a shot value of 10.5 and over as an inner ten, and 10.4 or lower as a natural ten, which I always took as true, not taken into consideration other targets as they have a clearly drawn line defining it, and must be treated with the same criteria as any line scoring.


Renzo
If you use the Match Manager program to take input from your Disag marker (for both 10m AR and 50m matches) you will be able to see both decimal and non-decimal scores (as long as you initially mark the target as decimals). It is a very comprehensive program that takes input from both Disag and Rika target marking machines and then will export your results directly to Excel.
We use it here in NZ and find that it's very good program. But of course it's not as good as electronic targets :-)

From what I remember, I thought a 10m air rifle shot scoring 10.2 is equal to an inner bull. But David's maths proves me wrong, it has to 10.3 = inner ten.
But a 50m inner bull is equal to a 10.35. So some 10.3's will inner's, others won't make it.
Cheers
Martin


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:03 am 
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Location: New Zealand
hundert wrote:
I hope some of you with enough influence will change targets alltogether. They were made in mind to make the maximum score "almost" possible, but unreachable.

In air pistol, the integers are waaaay to crude.
Shooting 9.9 is about 4 times as precise as 9.0, yet both are scored the same.
When shooting tenths, they're too small and it's difficult for beginners to to see if it's a 10.3 or 10.5 if they don't shoot electronic.

I think in AP, the 10 must be at least twice as big in diameter and then always scored in tenths, then you could actually print the tenth.

I've shot a series of "only" 94 in competition, with 3 x 9.9 and all other nines close to the 10. It may have been scored close to a 100.0 in tenths. A typical 94 Series scores something like 97.0 in tenth. Shooting 97.0 in finals is death, you'll fly out first or second, shooting a 100.0 keeps you in the medals.
Losing 3 points due to a flawed system is retarded. Kind of unfair being punished for shooting better.

I guess those at the top don't care much for the average paper club.

TLDR: you can shoot two series of exactly 90 points. One of those series could be up to 4 times as precise as the other, because of how big the rings are. That's super retarded.



NO. For gods sake lets not mess with anything else. The current AP target is fine and the absolute last thing pistol shooting needs or wants is the qualifying scored in tenths! The whole "I was so unlucky because I got some 9.9s" thing is usually from those that fail to mention how many "lucky"10.0s (or 9.0s and 8.0s) they also got.


Last edited by j-team on Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:41 am 
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Location: Aotearoa/NZ
In my experience for Air Pistol the marginal 9.0s and the near miss 9.9s roughly balance out to an average result.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:17 am 
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you both are wrong, there's a reason rifles aren't shot with integers any more.

a score of 599 could be more precise than 600 by A LOT. And it's indeed the case in real competitions.

In bench rest competitions you aren't even allowed to shoot a 9. If you do, you're out. With integers of course. With tenths, if you shoot deep 10s, you can afford a mistake, because you'll outdo others with your deep 10s.

I'm not sure how fair is it to let someone shoot four times as bad and win over the guy who shoots four times better. Look at the AP target, I have 500 of them in front of me, look how big the difference between a 9.9 and a 9.0 is, it's YUGE. Why the hell being more precise does not translate into a better score?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:46 am 
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Location: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
jenrick wrote:
I ended up getting an app for my phone called TargetScan, that can score in integer or decimal. It will read a target much like Orion and generate shot plots, scores etc. No it's not electronic scoring, you've got to let it scan the target after the shot. However when shooting Air Rifle on a 12 bull target, it's quick and easy to get 10 shots on record in decimal. For something like free pistol where it'd be rare to be stacking shots on top of each other it works great for 5-10 shots (depending on how well you shoot), on each target. Best $5 I've spent in a long time.

-Jenrick


+1

The range of targets is enormous, if yours is not there an email to support@targetshootingapp.com will surely get it added, although I am not sure about non-circular targets.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:01 pm
Posts: 15
I use targetscan too. Its great. A little picky on backlighting sometimes, but works great for what it does.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:29 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:26 am
Posts: 693
Location: Australia
hundert wrote:
you both are wrong, there's a reason rifles aren't shot with integers any more.

a score of 599 could be more precise than 600 by A LOT. And it's indeed the case in real competitions.

In bench rest competitions you aren't even allowed to shoot a 9. If you do, you're out. With integers of course. With tenths, if you shoot deep 10s, you can afford a mistake, because you'll outdo others with your deep 10s.

I'm not sure how fair is it to let someone shoot four times as bad and win over the guy who shoots four times better. Look at the AP target, I have 500 of them in front of me, look how big the difference between a 9.9 and a 9.0 is, it's YUGE. Why the hell being more precise does not translate into a better score?

We're not shooting benchrest, we don't shoot decimals, maybe we should have decimal scoring on clay pigeons?
The system is fine as it is.


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