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 Post subject: ISSF Rule Corrections
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:38 am 
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The following has appeared on the ISSF web site. (Rifle shooters might want to look at 7.4.1.6.c)
----------------------------
The latest version of the ISSF OFFICIAL STATUTES, RULES AND REGULATIONS has been published. Summary of the main changes and download link.

In response to new good governance requirements, the ISSF Executive Committee approved a change in the ISSF Code of Ethics during its most recent meeting in February 2017. This change provides that if it is necessary to appoint an Ethics Committee, “the members of the Ethics Committee must be independent and may not hold a position in the ISSF or any ISSF member federation.”


The original EDITION 2017 / First Print 01/2017 of the ISSF OFFICIAL STATUTES, RULES AND REGULATIONS has now been modified to include this change.


This change in the 2017 rulebook also provided an opportunity to make a few additional necessary corrections in the ISSF Technical Rules. The ISSF has just released an EDITION 2017 / First Print V1.1 03/2017 of the ISSF OFFICIAL STATUTES, RULES AND REGULATIONS that includes changes in the following rules:


- Art. 3.12.3.5, Annex CE, ISSF Code of Ethics, Preamble, Sec. 6.1, Sec. 6.2
- Rule 6.4.19.3 b) Traps for Double Trap
- Rule 6.17.4 c) 25m RFP Men Final hit zone
- Rule 7.4.1.6 Rifle Sights, corrective lens attachment
- Rule 8.6.3 Pistol Support Stands
- Rule 9.9.2 a) Double Trap Method
- Rule 9.15.1.1 a) and 9.15.1.2 Shotgun Ties Before Finals
- Rule 9.15.3 Team Ties


ISSF member federations, officials, coaches and athletes are encouraged to download this latest EDITION 2017 / First Print V1.1 03/2017 of the Rules so they will be sure to have the correct version of these rules. The document can be downloaded at: http://www.issf-sports.org/theissf/rules.ashx


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:01 am 
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7.4.1.6 seems to rule out the Gehmann 579 lens system.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:46 am 
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(a) & (c) do seem to conflict.

Since (c) is later in the rules, does it have a higher priority? <grin>

Or .... does the 579 have multiple lenses in it? If yes, then, pray tell, how the heck are we in EC supposed to know that?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:48 pm 
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jhmartin wrote:
(a) & (c) do seem to conflict.

Since (c) is later in the rules, does it have a higher priority? <grin>

Or .... does the 579 have multiple lenses in it? If yes, then, pray tell, how the heck are we in EC supposed to know that?

My reading of it, and I could be wrong, is that the rear sight can have coloured lenses or polarising filters IN it but corrective lenses can only be mounted ON it.

I would defer to someone who knows more about Rifle than do I.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Yes that's how I read it, and the 579 has a "lens system" IN it.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:43 pm 
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Hi David,

Is there a link to the latest version? The English link on the ISSF site only points to the previous version.

Also, did anyone ever see a clarification about whether or not colored sights on a pistol are now against the rules?

TIA

Stan


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:12 pm 
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David Levene wrote:
The following has appeared on the ISSF web site. (Rifle shooters might want to look at 7.4.1.6.c)
----------------------------
The latest version of the ISSF OFFICIAL STATUTES, RULES AND REGULATIONS has been published. Summary of the main changes and download link.

The original EDITION 2017 / First Print 01/2017 of the ISSF OFFICIAL STATUTES, RULES AND REGULATIONS has now been modified to include this change.

This change in the 2017 rulebook also provided an opportunity to make a few additional necessary corrections in the ISSF Technical Rules. The ISSF has just released an EDITION 2017 / First Print V1.1 03/2017 of the ISSF OFFICIAL STATUTES, RULES AND REGULATIONS that includes changes in the following rules:


ISSF member federations, officials, coaches and athletes are encouraged to download this latest EDITION 2017 / First Print V1.1 03/2017 of the Rules so they will be sure to have the correct version of these rules. The document can be downloaded at: http://www.issf-sports.org/theissf/rules.ashx


David:

As a fellow judge I ask you for advice (or opinion) in a matter that I had to deal in a match today, as I know you to be more knowledgeable and up-to-date with rule interpretations.

We were using for the first time - officially - our new DISAG scorer for paper targets, which was an enormous advance when scoring in tenths. As we haven´t set an interface with our match management program, we slipped the targets and set the machine to print the score on the paper, and then loaded the values in our spreadsheet (I hope our technician will sort this step promptly).

Anyways, I set the scorer to read in tenths even when the classification round was final and scored in natural points, because I needed to know if a hit was a "10" or an "inner ten". In all the refreshment courses I took we were always told that the only case that could bring any protest was in air rifle (we are talking about scoring with gauges) as the only rule to define an inner ten is to have the center point completely obliterated.

Obviously, the DISAG can´t "see" if the point is present or not, so we used the common practice of considering a shot value of 10.5 and over as an inner ten, and 10.4 or lower as a natural ten, which I always took as true, not taken into consideration other targets as they have a clearly drawn line defining it, and must be treated with the same criteria as any line scoring.

Then an international shooter of long carreer and reputation - without disputing his score - told me that when shooting in ESTs in Europe it is considered that in 50 m. Rifle an inner ten is considered hit if the score is 10.2 or over in standing and kneeling, and 10.4 or over in prone, which surprised me as I took the pain to apply the plastic scoring rule for tenths to a 50 meter rifle target and the inner ten line is scratched only at 10.3.

Would you care to tell me if what I've been told is true or not, and - if true - were to find it in the rules? I've spent the last two hours searchin the 2017 official book and found nothing and that worries me, as I'm to graduate to International matches inthe next few months.

Thanks you in advance, hope to have been clear.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:47 pm 
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David Levene wrote:
... the following rules:


- Rule 6.17.4 c) 25m RFP Men Final hit zone


what's changed here? It looks the same to me?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:01 pm 
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j-team wrote:
David Levene wrote:
... the following rules:


- Rule 6.17.4 c) 25m RFP Men Final hit zone


what's changed here? It looks the same to me?

it was a typo in the first print (10.2 as for Womens 25m Final), now corrected.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:33 am 
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IPshooter wrote:
Hi David,

Is there a link to the latest version? The English link on the ISSF site only points to the previous version.

Also, did anyone ever see a clarification about whether or not colored sights on a pistol are now against the rules?

TIA

Stan

Hi Stan

I cannot find a link to anything other than the latest version, 1.1

With regard to the coloured sights, all I have is an email from the ISSF Technical Director saying that "normal" colours are OK but that "fluorescent" colours are banned.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:06 am 
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renzo wrote:
Anyways, I set the scorer to read in tenths even when the classification round was final and scored in natural points, because I needed to know if a hit was a "10" or an "inner ten". In all the refreshment courses I took we were always told that the only case that could bring any protest was in air rifle (we are talking about scoring with gauges) as the only rule to define an inner ten is to have the center point completely obliterated.


If you are talking about Air Rifle then, for the 0.5mm spot to be obliterated, the centre of the 4.5mm hole must be no more than 1.75mm from the centre of the target. (Half the diameter of the hole minus half the diameter of the spot).

In Air Rifle, to score a 10.0 the centre of the 4.5mm hole must be no more than 2.5mm from the centre of the target. (half the diameter of the hole plus half the diameter of the spot).

Each 0.1 of a point is therefore 2.5/10=0.25mm.

To give the following scores the centre of the hole must be no more than the given distance from the centre of the target:-

10.9=0.25mm
10.8=0.50mm
10.7=0.75mm
10.6=1.00mm
10.5=1.25mm
10.4=1.50mm
10.3=1.75mm
10.2=2.00mm
10.1=2.25mm
10.0=2.50mm

You therefore need a 10.3 or better to score an inner 10 on the Air Rifle target.

(Don't look for a similar easy conversion on Air Pistol where an inner 10 is between 10.4 and 10.5)

I hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:03 am 
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renzo wrote:
Then an international shooter of long carreer and reputation - without disputing his score - told me that when shooting in ESTs in Europe it is considered that in 50 m. Rifle an inner ten is considered hit if the score is 10.2 or over in standing and kneeling, and 10.4 or over in prone, which surprised me as I took the pain to apply the plastic scoring rule for tenths to a 50 meter rifle target and the inner ten line is scratched only at 10.3.

Renzo,

50m three position rifle is shot on the same type of target in each position.
There is only one possibility for scoring inner ten's. And it´s not a "round" tenth...

Also, if you score a match in tenths, you don't have inner ten's. Tie-breaks are done via the last series, second to last series, and so on, then last shoot, second to last shot, and so on...

Check the software that came with the equipment.
If it's step up for tenths, it's normal that you don't have inner ten's.
If it's set up for integers then there should be a 10x for each inner ten.

Hope this helps


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:01 am 
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Thanks David and rmca, I'll put myself to work.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:08 am 
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renzo wrote:
Anyways, I set the scorer to read in tenths even when the classification round was final and scored in natural points, because I needed to know if a hit was a "10" or an "inner ten". In all the refreshment courses I took we were always told that the only case that could bring any protest was in air rifle (we are talking about scoring with gauges) as the only rule to define an inner ten is to have the center point completely obliterated.


I just realised what you said, and it is wrong.

When using a gauge to judge an air rifle inner ten you don't even look at the centre spot.

You use an Air Pistol outward scoring gauge, as rule 6.Annex.1.4.5 in the 2017 rules or 6.3.5.5 in the 2013 rules.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:10 am 
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David, I do use an outward pistol gauge but the question that troubled me was about the different alledged thresholds in the 50 meter rifle targets.

Also, when in the Nationals and National federation managed matches there´s no trouble with the center spot rule, but there´s a regional association to which my club is a part of and - believe it or not - some of the venues don´t even know what an outward gauge is or how to use it, so regretfully we must abide for a simplification of the rule, taking the "obliteration" part plainly.

Thanks for the input, it took me a few years until a member of my club went to Granada 2014 and brought me some gauges I lacked (during years importation was very difficult for individuals in my country) including the inner ten for air pistol gauge and the double shot checker.

The fact is, we bought the electronic scorer because there´s no decent way to have an OF in air events without it, and then some.

Greetings from Argentina


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:30 am 
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renzo wrote:
David, I do use an outward pistol gauge but the question that troubled me was about the different alledged thresholds in the 50 meter rifle targets.


For an inner 10 on 50m rifle the centre of the shot hole can be no more than 5.3mm from the centre of the target. (Half the diameter of the inner ten ring = 2.5mm plus half the diameter of the bullet = 2.8mm; 2.5 = 2.8 = 5.3mm).

For the 50m rifle target each 0.1 of a point is an extra 0.8mm. 10.4 has the centre of the hole no more than 4.8mm from the centre of the target; 10.3 has the centre of the hole no more than 5.6mm from the centre of the target. An inner 10 is therefore between 10.3 and 10.4.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:45 am 
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David Levene wrote:
An inner 10 is therefore between 10.3 and 10.4.

It always bugged me that the tenths and the inner tens didn't match, ie from 10,z up = inner ten (z=1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9)
But since the two systems (integer scoring and tenths) are not to be used simultaneous, it's not a big deal...

It does provide a bit of confusion for shooters who are used to integer scoring and are now presented with tenths.
First thing they want to know is, how many inner tens did I scored?
They hardly get satisfied with the answer... been there, done that, got a lot of T-shirts in the process!!! ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:52 am 
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David Levene wrote:


For the 50m rifle target each 0.1 of a point is an extra 0.8mm. 10.4 has the centre of the hole no more than 4.8mm from the centre of the target; 10.3 has the centre of the hole no more than 5.6mm from the centre of the target. An inner 10 is therefore between 10.3 and 10.4.


Using the official plastic ruler for tenths and a big magnifier ON AN OFFICIAL PAPER TARGET, I discovered that a 10.4 is clearly (no help from gauges necesasry) an inner ten, and a 10.2 is way out the scoring line, so I will partially concur with you in that a 10.3 is enough for giving it.

Obviously, the mess occurs when you try to correlate paper targets to EST. In the former, the method relies on VISUAL observation and HUMAN criteria, in the latter it does not.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:09 pm 
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renzo wrote:
Using the official plastic ruler for tenths and a big magnifier ON AN OFFICIAL PAPER TARGET, I discovered that a 10.4 is clearly (no help from gauges necesasry) an inner ten, and a 10.2 is way out the scoring line, so I will partially concur with you in that a 10.3 is enough for giving it.

But 10.3 is not always an inner 10.

I cannot see why you are trying to do this. If you are trying to do decimal scoring then there is no need for the inner 10s. If you are trying to do integer scoring then surely your machine has a setting that will say if it's an inner 10 or not (or just use a gauge).


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:46 pm 
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David Levene wrote:
renzo wrote:
Using the official plastic ruler for tenths and a big magnifier ON AN OFFICIAL PAPER TARGET, I discovered that a 10.4 is clearly (no help from gauges necesasry) an inner ten, and a 10.2 is way out the scoring line, so I will partially concur with you in that a 10.3 is enough for giving it.

But 10.3 is not always an inner 10.

I cannot see why you are trying to do this. If you are trying to do decimal scoring then there is no need for the inner 10s. If you are trying to do integer scoring then surely your machine has a setting that will say if it's an inner 10 or not (or just use a gauge).


David. What I tried was a physical comparison between a paper target scoring and the electronic.

There are certain circumstances in which you have to stray from the strict ISSF rules. As an example: 50 m. Prone Rifle and Air Rifle are to be scored in tenths all the way, that is, quali and OF.

But the National Federation officials (we have a match in the coming weeks that is compulsory for those willing to be a part of the National teams) when we offered them to score those events as per the rules, said that it was not useful to them, as we were one of two locations where such a score could be had, and it would turn impossible for them to make any average with other matches.

Instead, they preferred integer points for quali and tenths for OF's, and starting from there they call the best to shoot at the only SIUS-equipped range during several weekends under close observation.

Being things as they are, what I tried was to determine when should I grant an "inner ten" when using the electronic scorer, which doesn´t "see" the lines, so the worry about values, and I must do that because "inner tens" are still legally tie-breakers.

Please try to understand my predicament...................

Cheers


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