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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:56 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:41 am
Posts: 23
Location: Brittany/France
Hello to all,
I introduce myself. Im French and I live in Brittany next to the Atlantic, the westerner part of continental France. I'm 62 and retired from a great French military industry company. I've been shooting for 30 years now.
A couple of months back, I purchased a second hand SIG Hämmerli P 240 in .38 WC. Last Tuesday, once back home after a shooting session in my club while I dismantled my pistol to clean it, I noted a bulge in the barrel.
That gun was discontinued in 1977. I'd be happy to manage to fix it but I cannot find any spare here in Europe. Therefore I'm knocking all the doors I can find to try to find a solution.
I still can use the gun because I've also got the .32 SWL conversion...
Any advice, help would be highly appreciated.
Many thanks. You'll find a picture of my artwork as well.
Greetings from France.
Jacques


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:40 pm
Posts: 252
I heard this happens when a bullet gets stuck in the barrel and then you fire another one. This (I heard) happens often to people who load their own ammo and don't load with enough gun powder (by mistake). Another would be using .357 in a .38 gun, I'm not sure it's physically possible though since I've never owned either calibers.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:16 am
Posts: 153
Location: Central Texas
First verify the barrel is clear of any obstruction. Next verify that the pistol will function properly with the bulge (it appears far enough back that it should cycle), check this by cycling by hand. Once those two questions are answered, test fire it and see how it shoots. A bulge in the barrel can cause poor accuracy as a bullet can upset in the bulged part, and actually end up traveling down the rest of the barrel cocked. However it frequently has no effect on accuracy. There have been reports of it actually improving accuracy, though it is certainly not recommended to try and bugle a barrel to test it. You may find you have no need for a new barrel.

Whatever you do, do NOT shoot a .357 magnum round in a pistol chambered in .38 (regardless of whether it's a .38 S&W, Special, Super, etc). No matter if it will fit (it shouldn't), the chamber isn't designed for the pressure. It is possible to reload a .357 magnum cartridge to a pressure that would be safe in a .38 chamber, but there'd be no reason to do that as you could just use a .38 casing.

-Jenrick


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:56 am
Posts: 239
Location: New Hampshire, USA
jenrick wrote:
First verify the barrel is clear of any obstruction. Next verify that the pistol will function properly with the bulge (it appears far enough back that it should cycle), check this by cycling by hand. Once those two questions are answered, test fire it and see how it shoots. A bulge in the barrel can cause poor accuracy as a bullet can upset in the bulged part, and actually end up traveling down the rest of the barrel cocked. However it frequently has no effect on accuracy. There have been reports of it actually improving accuracy, though it is certainly not recommended to try and bugle a barrel to test it. You may find you have no need for a new barrel.

Whatever you do, do NOT shoot a .357 magnum round in a pistol chambered in .38 (regardless of whether it's a .38 S&W, Special, Super, etc). No matter if it will fit (it shouldn't), the chamber isn't designed for the pressure. It is possible to reload a .357 magnum cartridge to a pressure that would be safe in a .38 chamber, but there'd be no reason to do that as you could just use a .38 casing.

-Jenrick


Just to add to this.... I would also think that the bulge would allow gasses to escape more rapidly and result in a dramatic drop in velocity. Best bet is to find a replacement barrel or a really good machinist that can duplicate the original.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:51 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:16 am
Posts: 153
Location: Central Texas
You'd have to have a bugle long enough for the base of the bullet to be in the bugle at the same time the nose is too loose much pressure. It's possible, but not likely.

-Jenrick


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:44 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:13 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Dallas, Texas
Those cracks look scary.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:10 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:27 pm
Posts: 27
Location: Utah
Sorry about the bulged barrel. There was a thread about this viewtopic.php?t=20920. .. Maybe some of these folks can help.

Cheers

Dave


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:22 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:41 am
Posts: 23
Location: Brittany/France
Hello to all,
I reload almost everything I shoot but the .22s.
In France, the number of ammo you can buy is limited to 1000 rds/year/gun. Therefore, we all reload.
For accuracy, I only used H&N bullets made in Germany,hollow base and dia .355 (the barrel is tight and 9mm size), primers are Winchester, cases Starline and powder French made BA10 for a quantity of 0.16 grams that is 2.47 grains. Everything is the same I have done for 30 years now.
https://www.hn-sport.de/fr/reloading/wc-hb-357-148-gr-l same as these but in .355
I was shooting speed 3/7 sec when I bulged the barrel and you have no time to check whether the bullet is in the target....
Many thanks and have good day.
Greetings from Brittany.
Jacques


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:53 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:09 am
Posts: 200
Location: Belgium
Hello Jacques,

I have been shooting the 240 for quite a while. The myth of a barrel too tight for the regular .38 size bullet has been around for a long time. Hammerlï has warned about bullets that were 'oversized' but all ways stated that it was not the cause of a bulged barrel.
What can happen is a cracked shell and part of the shell gets stuck in the barrel causing a pressure build up and a bulged barrel.

Maybe you can contact Walther. Walther has taken over all equipment from Hammerlï. Maybe they can help you.
Good luck.

Guy


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:26 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:48 am
Posts: 1151
Location: New Zealand
gn303 wrote:
Maybe you can contact Walther. Walther has taken over all equipment from Hammerlï. Maybe they can help you.
Good luck.

Guy


Hahahahaha... Good luck with that, Walther might own the hammerli brand, but they don't give a sh*t about anything hammerli that was made (properly) in Switzerland!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:46 am
Posts: 404
Location: Western Washington State, USA
Greetings,

I did contact Walther to repair my Haemmerli 280 and SP-20.

With both issues they took good care of me.

Perhaps it was due to parts in stock from the assimilation of Haemmerli Switzerland.

Cheers,

Dave


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:56 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:09 am
Posts: 200
Location: Belgium
j-team wrote:
gn303 wrote:
Maybe you can contact Walther. Walther has taken over all equipment from Hammerlï. Maybe they can help you.
Good luck.

Guy


Hahahahaha... Good luck with that, Walther might own the hammerli brand, but they don't give a sh*t about anything hammerli that was made (properly) in Switzerland!


You caught the meaning of 'Good Luck'. But see the reply of fc60: wonders do happen!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:58 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:43 pm
Posts: 966
The major cause of bulged P240 .38 barrels over the years has been leaving skirts from a HBWC behind in the barrel and the next round pops the barrel.
The barrel is tight (9mm /.355-.356).
The design with the reduced diameter is not forgiving at all, we found the best load was cast 148g wadcutters, sized .356 and cast in soft alloy.
Loaded with 2.6g Bullseye they shoot like a dream.
A barrel maker in Australia does make a P240 barrel (Ray Pulver), but I am not sure about export.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:42 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:32 pm
Posts: 230
Location: Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
Good luck on getting Ray to respond! I've had a request in with him for over two years, and a colleague who lives in Sydney likewise needs a barrel and can't get a response from him. Basically given up.

Dr Jim


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:33 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:41 am
Posts: 23
Location: Brittany/France
Hi friends,
I'm in contact with Lothar Walther Company making barrels. I've found one of their items that could be a start to recreate one but I think the price 's gonna be too important for one person. On top of that, the different authorisations might be very complicated as well, in case I want to import the barrel and machine it next door...
http://www.lothar-walther.de/160.php


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:31 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:46 am
Posts: 404
Location: Western Washington State, USA
Greetings,

Something to consider is the method used for rifling.

I use button broached barrels from Douglas. As received, they measure about 28 HRC.

For the P240 Project I am working on, I special ordered a 2" diameter blank to allow for the bottom lugs.

After heat treating to 40 HRC and machining away 75% of the material, the internal dimensions remained relative stable. My bore gauges measure to 0.0001" and end to end uniformity was consistent.

I did try a "hammer rifled" barrel for a different project and after removing the excess material, the internal dimensions were not uniform due to the internal stresses of rifling.

Contact Lothar-Walther and describe the project to an engineer prior to buying a blank.

I did buy a Lothar-Walther blank for experimenting and it worked rather well. The reason I changed to Douglas was that they are easily obtained in the USA and consistency from blank to blank is quite good.

Contact me for questions regarding how I fixtured the P240 barrel thus far. I am still 50% away from completion.

Cheers,

Dave


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:36 pm
Posts: 52
Just a thought on this. Would it be possible to remove the old barrel from the lug and then either drill and ream out the stub or EDM, either by carbon burning or wire, and then take a barrel blank, put an appropriate shoulder on it, and silver braze it in place? you could then ream a chamber in it and be just about finished. Or am I missing something here? Any comments?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:32 pm
Posts: 230
Location: Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
That plan, machinist mike has always been my fall back. If Dave would make me a stub breach (hint, hint!) there is a respectable chunk of barrel to fit in. I've done similar jobs in the past and they've worked out well. But of course it would be best to do it in one piece since the breach wall on the P240 is really thin.

Eh well.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:22 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:11 am
Posts: 69
Location: Haymarket, VA
fc60 wrote:
Greetings,

Something to consider is the method used for rifling.

I use button broached barrels from Douglas. As received, they measure about 28 HRC.

For the P240 Project I am working on, I special ordered a 2" diameter blank to allow for the bottom lugs.

After heat treating to 40 HRC and machining away 75% of the material, the internal dimensions remained relative stable. My bore gauges measure to 0.0001" and end to end uniformity was consistent.

I did try a "hammer rifled" barrel for a different project and after removing the excess material, the internal dimensions were not uniform due to the internal stresses of rifling.

Contact Lothar-Walther and describe the project to an engineer prior to buying a blank.

I did buy a Lothar-Walther blank for experimenting and it worked rather well. The reason I changed to Douglas was that they are easily obtained in the USA and consistency from blank to blank is quite good.

Contact me for questions regarding how I fixtured the P240 barrel thus far. I am still 50% away from completion.

Cheers,

Dave



How about a Krieger barrel since they are not buttoned


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:16 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:41 am
Posts: 23
Location: Brittany/France
Hello Friends,
I'm in more serious contact with Lothar Walther boss Gerd. I'm in the process of sending him my bulged barrel and slide. He is eager to check how it could be possible to remake barrels for the P240. He said at least 50 pieces are necessary to get an acceptable retailing price.
Have you got an idea of the potential number of barrels, the American market would absorb? And for Dr Jim the Canadian one ? If you have any contact with Australia and New Zealand, it could be a good idea to inform them...
Lothar Walther only delivers to import companies with all the necessary official weapon import authorisations. For your own country, you just have to select it from here http://www.lothar-walther.de/252.php
Now I'm waiting for the green light to send my barrel to Germany and receive a quotation of what Gerd Walther calls "a decent price" 'cause on top of machining, an official pressure test must be conducted as well.
Let's wait what can come up with all my efforts on the topic.
Friendly from France.
Jacques


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