TargetTalk

A forum to talk about Olympic style shooting, rifle or pistol, 10 meters to 50 meters, and whatever is in between. Hosted by Pilkguns.com
It is currently Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:29 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Training systems
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:04 am
Posts: 355
Location: Montreal, Québec, Canada
Anyone know of anywhere with a list of the different shooting training systems?

Wasn't there a new system recently that was similar to SCATT, wireless, and dry-fire and live-fire capable?

_________________
- Smith & Wesson SW22 Victory
- FAS SP607


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Training systems
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:17 pm
Posts: 235
Location: IL
Search is your friend

http://targettalk.org/search.php?keywords=electronic+trainer&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Training systems
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:04 am
Posts: 355
Location: Montreal, Québec, Canada
SteveT wrote:


Actually, search and I are sworn enemies. Seems to be rather random in my experience.

At least your search terms found the Trace system.

Is there no where on the web that lists and compares all the systems?

_________________
- Smith & Wesson SW22 Victory
- FAS SP607


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Training systems
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:40 pm
Posts: 252
buy scatt... there's nothing else


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Training systems
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:17 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Colorado
Here's a good thread worth reviewing along with my opinion.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=50033
Hope it helps.
Chris


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Training systems
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:26 am
Posts: 125
Take a look at TRACE. Www.traceshooting.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Training systems
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
Posts: 5242
Location: Ruislip, UK
Pheyden wrote:
Take a look at TRACE. http://Www.traceshooting.com

Have you used Trace.

The only comments I've seen on it have come from the manufacturers, and they obviously like it.

It would be interesting to see a comparison with Scatt, from someone who understands how to get the best from Scatt.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Training systems
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:53 am
Posts: 350
I suggest SCATT, mainly because there are a number of people who know how to read those traces and can help you figure out what is going on. Since the whole purpose of SCATT is diagnostic in nature, having people who can help read it is very useful.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Training systems
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:26 am
Posts: 125
David, I was one of the early adopters of TRACE. I bought two systems. One my wife and I use and the other is on permanent loan to the club we belong to. As an early adopter I helped the developers by testing early versions. So, we are now through to the third version of software, and at least the second version of hardware.

There are three ways to display/recall the recorded information.

1. A trace line - depicted in 4 colors. Blue for shot process approaching the hold. Orange for the last second before shot release (adjustable). Red for shot release and a period of 0.2 second indicating approximate shot placement on target. Green for follow through. At the bottom of the screen js shown the score of shot, time for shot in seconds, and length of trace line.

2. A time interval chart for all shots in a session

3. A coordination graph showing the development of the shot hold for the last 1.4 seconds.

The developers of trace have also added some training routines, where you can set the boundariy of a hold (say the 9 ring) and it will audibly let the shooter know if the hold drifts outside that boundary.

Where the difference between TRACE and SCATT is evident is in the post processing of information for statistical results.

For me as a budding new shooter (yes, even at age 69), it became evident that the level of coaching available to me at the local club level was limited. This was particularly so in evaluating changes in NPA, grip modification, posture, trigger action, and shot release, as many "informal" coaches are not adequately trained to observe subtle indicators and thus provide good advice. What I needed was something that would record my shot process and any changes I made to it (for better or worse).

I then combined this with some expert advice, in individual areas, to do my own development. I went and visited Cesare Morini in Italy and observed him fitting and modifying grips for different pistols, including my wife's LP10 and my MGH1. This helped immensely in the development of a good NPA. I also availed myself of some "remote coaching", using a person I have chosen on the other side of the world many time zones away, by utilizing Skype. By sending screen captures of TRACE, video of me training, and regular conversations about what I was doing or changing, I was able to get the most out of TRACE.

In speaking with the developers of TRACE they realise that their program does not have the full "statistical analysis" capability, as compared to SCATT. Part of the reason for this is that much of this statistical capability is under utilised. The mechanical/optical package associated with TRACE is stable and well developed. It has a basic level of functionality, commensurate with the price charged for the package. Over time, as the need for additional functionality and statistical number crunching becomes more evident, more of these features may be added.

Let me know if there is any additional insight I can give you.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Training systems
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
Posts: 5242
Location: Ruislip, UK
Pheyden wrote:
Where the difference between TRACE and SCATT is evident is in the post processing of information for statistical results.

Thanks for that report Pheyden.

It is the statistical results that I found most useful when trying to help shooters (several years ago).

Spot a problem, identify (or suggest) the probable cause, apply changes to correct the problem, check the results (normally some time after the introduction of changes).

The time interval chart, which is also available in Scatt, IMHO is one of the most over-rated pieces of information to come from ETs. What does it mean? What good does having a consistent time interval bring. I would rather have a shooter who is prepared to abort the shot process if something doesn't feel right.

Glad that you feel you are getting benefit from your Trace.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Training systems
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:26 am
Posts: 125
David,

I will admit that the time interval chart is of limited value to me as well. However for a new shooter, trying to establish a shot routine, the chart may help.

There are two metrics that I would like, either applicable to each individual shot, or a series of shots.

1. The first is the percentage of time the shooter is holding a particular hold value (like 9 or 10 ring).
2. The amount of trace displacement in the RED section (shot release) of the trace.

Both of these could be calculated in almost real time and displayed on the bottom if the trace screen, as well as made available as a separate screen/printed output. By having this available over a series of shots useful averages can be determined.

Regards
Paul


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Training systems
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:53 pm
Posts: 26
Side by side comparison of the SCATT and Trace systems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRDlCZPOqEg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Training systems
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:15 pm
Posts: 35
Location: Latvia, Riga
scatt_manufacturer wrote:
Side by side comparison of the SCATT and Trace systems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRDlCZPOqEg


If anyone takes a closer look at the video - it's fairly noticable, that the top of TRACE sensor casing is cut wide open for unknown reasons.

Taking this into account and the fact that this video is created and posted by official SCATT representative I think everyone should understand that such test doesn't represent the real comparision of the systems.

Valērijs
TRACE Team


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Training systems
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:06 pm
Posts: 6
Bakerman wrote:
scatt_manufacturer wrote:
Side by side comparison of the SCATT and Trace systems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRDlCZPOqEg


If anyone takes a closer look at the video - it's fairly noticable, that the top of TRACE sensor casing is cut wide open for unknown reasons.

Taking this into account and the fact that this video is created and posted by official SCATT representative I think everyone should understand that such test doesn't represent the real comparision of the systems.

Valērijs
TRACE Team

Dear Valērijs
I would very much like to see a formal response from Trace to this video and discussion. Of course I understand it was made by their competitor with the intention to discredit the Trace device and they have opened and possibly tampered with the device or tailored the testing to achieve the desired result, but as an owner of a trace unit I have personally experienced these large sharp wild deviations that I know are not real with respect to the hold. The lag appears to be something that has been greatly exaggerated in the video but I do notice some lag between sights coming on to target and the trace line appearing on screen in my unscientific testing, maybe only a second or two but it is there.
Trace please reassure your customer base and respond to us telling us what is being done to address these performance issues and the expected timeframe involved to to rectify these performance issues. If the only way to rectify this is by hardware replacement I would hope Trace will have the integrity to do that for the customers that have put their trust in your company's marketing and performance claims by purchasing this device as early adopters.
Thank you


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group