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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:30 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
Posts: 5263
Location: Ruislip, UK
Pheyden wrote:
Perhaps it is the capabilities of Trace, that differentiates it from SCATT, that is their primary focus.

I agree with regard to the software, but Scatt are challenging the basic accuracy of the Trace system.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:02 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:50 pm
Posts: 68
Location: Aus
rmca wrote:
David Levene wrote:
Not really. It's been all Scatt so far.

I would have thought that Trace would have done their own tests and published them but, so far, nothing.

+1

+1000000 the total lack of response from Trace shows a real disregard for their customers.

Was this last test done with the latest release of the Trace software v1.2 (0823) which claims:
"6. Better Appearance of Trace Line
Actually, Trace line is now much smoother than before."

https://www.traceshooting.com/single-post/New-Version-Of-TRACE-App-Automatic-Target-Detection-Autosaving-and-many-more

Also scatt_manufacturer, please make your animated target available for download so owners can make their own comparisons.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:53 pm
Posts: 26
argus wrote:
Also scatt_manufacturer, please make your animated target available for download so owners can make their own comparisons.


Hi there, below is the link for the target simulation, so that all Trace users could check their systems directly. The operation is pretty simple. First you need to measure and enter the height and width of the white screen, then the distance from sensor to the screen. Just make sure you have a computer with a good and bright screen to run the target. Shift+ num key will draw a zigzag circle, ctrl + num key will draw squares.

We also made a control app for your convenience, so that you don't have to run back and forth between computers. It isn't necessary, but it will allow you to control the target from the main PC as long as both computers are connected to the same network.


Attachments:
sim_target_control.rar [653.08 KiB]
Downloaded 39 times
sim_target (1).rar [700.43 KiB]
Downloaded 39 times
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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:01 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:53 pm
Posts: 26
argus wrote:
+1000000 the total lack of response from Trace shows a real disregard for their customers.

Was this last test done with the latest release of the Trace software v1.2 (0823) which claims:
"6. Better Appearance of Trace Line
Actually, Trace line is now much smoother than before."

https://www.traceshooting.com/single-post/New-Version-Of-TRACE-App-Automatic-Target-Detection-Autosaving-and-many-more


We tried to use the latest Trace software on a new PC, but unfortunately Trace disregarded our request for new software activation. As Trace users probably know, Trace software doesn't work until the seller sends you the activation code. In our case they sent us a wrong code and then disregarded our requests for weeks. So we had to use the older version which we already had registered on one of our computers.

However, it's hard to believe that the accuracy will improve with this software update. It's hardware cannot produce initial data accurate enough. So no matter how you process it, the accuracy will hardly change. The only thing possible in this case, is to make the lines visually smoother.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:04 am
Posts: 406
Location: Montreal, Québec, Canada
Any trace user should be able to easily test their system mechanically.
Clamp the sensor and place a suitably scaled target off center on anything that turns with a bearing.
Slowly turn and rock what is holding the target.

_________________
- Smith & Wesson SW22 Victory
- FAS SP607


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:53 pm
Posts: 26
Pheyden wrote:
Perhaps it is not in the best interest of Trace to enter into a direct comparison with SCATT? Yes, SCATT hold the major market share, but purely competing head-to-head may not be the answer. Trace may be trying to differentiate its product by carving out a different niche. Perhaps it is the capabilities of Trace, that differentiates it from SCATT, that is their primary focus. My view is that both systems are training tools.


In reality we are not that much worried about "market share" here, throughout these years we've seen competitors come and go.
But, we know that all shooters are in this great and fun sport to achieve ultimate accuracy(!). And we value this a lot, for over 25 years we've never stopped and told ourselves "okay, this is good enough", we work continuously to improve the accuracy and the capabilities of the SCATT training systems.

So, what is really frustrating here, is that in this sport of achieving perfect precision, someone is taking money from shooters for a training tool of substandard accuracy, which offers "approximate" data. It might cost someone lost time, lost efforts, lost opportunity, and less than perfect scores. And this is really upsetting.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:43 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:50 pm
Posts: 68
Location: Aus
Well, with my Trace unit using the latest software, auto target detection feature, 5/5 detection quality and Scatt simulated AP10 target at 10m and 80mm/s the results are very similar to scatt_manufacturer's video albeit more centred on the target. The unit also seems to be more consistent after a bit of a "warm up" time, initial traces were terrible.
I would say that if you can already hold between 10.9 and 9.5 the trace is reasonably accurate but not smooth. Once the target reaches the 7 ring the trace is already out to the 6.5 ring and by the time you get to the 1 ring you have what would be a "zero" ring on the target. The further from centre the less accurate the trace becomes.
I would be interested to see the if a Scatt Basic owner can reproduce scatt_manufacturer's video results with their unit.
I wonder what the outcome of a request for refund from Trace would be given the Trace unit is just not fit for purpose but Trace appears to have no interest in acknowledging or fixing the problem or even communicating with their now long suffering customers.

The images below are the best results I have been able to achieve.
https://i.imgur.com/ikYJnDH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/JsfZ6Sz.jpg
Disregard the flattening of the trace at the top and bottom of the 2 ring, this is a limitation due to screen size of target laptop.
Similarly the 1 ("0") ring is only visible between 3 and 6 o-clock again this is due to screen size

Comment from Trace Representative would be very welcome!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:50 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:15 pm
Posts: 35
Location: Latvia, Riga
David Levene wrote:
John67 wrote:
.......at the moment these tests look kinda far from real world and just two companies fighting who's better

Not really. It's been all Scatt so far.

I would have thought that Trace would have done their own tests and published them but, so far, nothing.


It's important to mention that there are many different products on the market each suited for different customer needs. The main question is what do you expect from a training system?

- If you want to get the absolute accuracy of the score the best way of doing so is to use electronic scoring targets.
- If you want to virtually register your scores at home a simple laser system might do the work.
- If you want to reduce your hold from 7 ring to 8 ring then from 8 ring to 9 ring etc. a more sophisticated optical system might be required.

Expectations and needs of each customer are different. Same way when you just start shooting what is really important? Is it the accuracy of the gun or pellets you use? I think the important part is getting the shooting basics right. And TRACE is the exact tool that helps you evaluating the core errors in your shooting technique in order to improve your shooting performance.

The market is open and each person can make their own decision based on their requirements. It's just interesting how a company which states that they are not worried about their market share is moving all their efforts in 'marketing' a competitive product.

As for communication I would encourage to contact us by email at hello@traceshooting.com.

Valērijs
TRACE Team


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:41 am
Posts: 16
scatt_manufacturer wrote:
argus wrote:
Also scatt_manufacturer, please make your animated target available for download so owners can make their own comparisons.


Hi there, below is the link for the target simulation, so that all Trace users could check their systems directly. The operation is pretty simple. First you need to measure and enter the height and width of the white screen, then the distance from sensor to the screen. Just make sure you have a computer with a good and bright screen to run the target. Shift+ num key will draw a zigzag circle, ctrl + num key will draw squares.

We also made a control app for your convenience, so that you don't have to run back and forth between computers. It isn't necessary, but it will allow you to control the target from the main PC as long as both computers are connected to the same network.


I'm sorry, but my Mcafee antivirus didn't allow me to download this, says one of these is a virus... I was thinking of getting a trace for myself.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:54 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:53 pm
Posts: 26
dcooper wrote:
scatt_manufacturer wrote:
argus wrote:
Also scatt_manufacturer, please make your animated target available for download so owners can make their own comparisons.


Hi there, below is the link for the target simulation, so that all Trace users could check their systems directly. The operation is pretty simple. First you need to measure and enter the height and width of the white screen, then the distance from sensor to the screen. Just make sure you have a computer with a good and bright screen to run the target. Shift+ num key will draw a zigzag circle, ctrl + num key will draw squares.

We also made a control app for your convenience, so that you don't have to run back and forth between computers. It isn't necessary, but it will allow you to control the target from the main PC as long as both computers are connected to the same network.


I'm sorry, but my Mcafee antivirus didn't allow me to download this, says one of these is a virus... I was thinking of getting a trace for myself.

You can safely ignore the Mcafee, it reacts like that because the files are in .zip archives. But how are you planning to test the system if you don't have one yet?


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:50 pm
Posts: 68
Location: Aus
Bakerman wrote:
It's important to mention that there are many different products on the market each suited for different customer needs. The main question is what do you expect from a training system?

- If you want to get the absolute accuracy of the score the best way of doing so is to use electronic scoring targets.
- If you want to virtually register your scores at home a simple laser system might do the work.
- If you want to reduce your hold from 7 ring to 8 ring then from 8 ring to 9 ring etc. a more sophisticated optical system might be required.

Trace does not appear to be the best choice for any of these things.

Bakerman wrote:
Expectations and needs of each customer are different. Same way when you just start shooting what is really important? Is it the accuracy of the gun or pellets you use? I think the important part is getting the shooting basics right. And TRACE is the exact tool that helps you evaluating the core errors in your shooting technique in order to improve your shooting performance....

So you are saying that Trace may be useful to beginners for a few months providing they are happy with an accuracy of +/-10mm with a constant jitter and the occasional wild excursion from their true arc of motion?

Bakerman wrote:
The market is open and each person can make their own decision based on their requirements.....

All I can say to those still considering becoming beta testers for Trace is to keep a close eye on the 14 day refund period, you may need it.

Bakerman wrote:
As for communication I would encourage to contact us by email at hello@traceshooting.com.

Strange that you were quite confortable to use this forum for communication when you were spruiking your product and taking members money with claims of accuracy, ongoing improvements and support. http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=51951


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:32 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:20 am
Posts: 3
argus wrote:
Bakerman wrote:

Bakerman wrote:
The market is open and each person can make their own decision based on their requirements.....

All I can say to those still considering becoming beta testers for Trace is to keep a close eye on the 14 day refund period, you may need it.

Bakerman wrote:
As for communication I would encourage to contact us by email at hello@traceshooting.com.

Strange that you were quite confortable to use this forum for communication when you were spruiking your product and taking members money with claims of accuracy, ongoing improvements and support. http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=51951


Was reading this discussion and coudn't resist to comment. Probably scatt is at some aspects superior as product, but (apologies for the language) customer care is complete sh.t!!! Not only manufacturer itself who didn't answer to emails (may be there's some problem or wrong email) but dealer's, too. As a member of shooting club and regular competitor in regional competitions can assure you it's not only my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:39 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:41 am
Posts: 16
Quote:
You can safely ignore the Mcafee, it reacts like that because the files are in .zip archives. But how are you planning to test the system if you don't have one yet?


Well, it wasn't upset by other zips I was getting...

I go to a range in Brisbane with couple other lads, both of them use trace


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:31 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:04 am
Posts: 406
Location: Montreal, Québec, Canada
While the SCATT testing (and Trace's non-existent defence) sure raise questions about the accuracy of the Trace system, I think the testing fails to identify what the actual observed error is.

As the cameras have a sampling rate and the computer has a processing rate, the traces on screen are interpolations between the captured images and calculated points from the camera.

So is the observed error a failure of the camera capture rate? Communication between camera and computer? Processing speed of the computer/software? Less than ideal line drawing algorithms?

For point accuracy and repeatability, the test could perhaps be repeated with both systems moving the target known distances and evaluating the rest point measurements. Then, it seems to me, Trace needs to stop making excuses and explain the observed differences and how they are going to overcome them or how, in detailed terms, they aren't relevant to the use of the system or detrimental to the training of the user.

_________________
- Smith & Wesson SW22 Victory
- FAS SP607


Last edited by SlartyBartFast on Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:53 pm
Posts: 26
O11 wrote:

Was reading this discussion and coudn't resist to comment. Probably scatt is at some aspects superior as product, but (apologies for the language) customer care is complete sh.t!!! Not only manufacturer itself who didn't answer to emails (may be there's some problem or wrong email) but dealer's, too. As a member of shooting club and regular competitor in regional competitions can assure you it's not only my opinion.

Please PM me to let us know what is the technical issue you are having and where you are located or through which dealer you purchased the system and when. We are addressing every single customer inquiry promptly. In the past few years we've introduced a very stringent support program. We have professional service centers in the US and Europe, so in the unlikely event of anything happening, you can just go back directly to the service center in your region, and not worry about shipping the product overseas to the manufacturer. For example, if you are located in America, SCATT USA is the dedicated service center for that region. SCATT USA has a toll free number at which you can get answers to any of your questions almost instantly, also the average response time to email inquiries is less than 24 hours. All the systems are covered by a 2 year warranty and I don't think there has been a single case where we refused to service the product under warranty for any reason.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:32 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:20 am
Posts: 3
scatt_manufacturer wrote:
O11 wrote:

Please PM me to let us know what is the technical issue you are having and where you are located or through which dealer you purchased the system and when. We are addressing every single customer inquiry promptly. In the past few years we've introduced a very stringent support program. We have professional service centers in the US and Europe, so in the unlikely event of anything happening, you can just go back directly to the service center in your region, and not worry about shipping the product overseas to the manufacturer. For example, if you are located in America, SCATT USA is the dedicated service center for that region. SCATT USA has a toll free number at which you can get answers to any of your questions almost instantly, also the average response time to email inquiries is less than 24 hours. All the systems are covered by a 2 year warranty and I don't think there has been a single case where we refused to service the product under warranty for any reason.


Just out of curiosity have you ever tried to call that free number you mentioned? Believe me you should be very patient and persistant to reach someone on weekends! Same with emails! And you mentioned scatt usa and europe but if I'm located in buenos aires means I don't have any support at all, right? And I'm not talking about any warranty problems you somehow mentioned but simple customer care which is non-existent.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:53 pm
Posts: 26
O11 wrote:
scatt_manufacturer wrote:
O11 wrote:

Please PM me to let us know what is the technical issue you are having and where you are located or through which dealer you purchased the system and when. We are addressing every single customer inquiry promptly. In the past few years we've introduced a very stringent support program. We have professional service centers in the US and Europe, so in the unlikely event of anything happening, you can just go back directly to the service center in your region, and not worry about shipping the product overseas to the manufacturer. For example, if you are located in America, SCATT USA is the dedicated service center for that region. SCATT USA has a toll free number at which you can get answers to any of your questions almost instantly, also the average response time to email inquiries is less than 24 hours. All the systems are covered by a 2 year warranty and I don't think there has been a single case where we refused to service the product under warranty for any reason.


Just out of curiosity have you ever tried to call that free number you mentioned? Believe me you should be very patient and persistant to reach someone on weekends! Same with emails! And you mentioned scatt usa and europe but if I'm located in buenos aires means I don't have any support at all, right? And I'm not talking about any warranty problems you somehow mentioned but simple customer care which is non-existent.


Well, we are a company just like any other company and our employees need weekends, so the toll-free number is active on business days 8AM to 5PM. And if you call outside these hours, it's also very easy, because users leave voice messages and we return their calls the next business day. If you are located in Buenos Aires you can contact SCATT USA they will still help you without any questions or the dealer in Ecuador and Peru (tel: 00593.9.92020300) he will be able to assist you in Spanish.
You still haven't mentioned the question that you had for us, if you still need advice please send it to me and we will he happy to help.
It seems like you registered here on the forum the same day as you posted your claim, so if you are indeed one of our users and didn't just register here to give us trouble, we are sorry for the inconvenience and please feel free to use any of the aforementioned modes of communication.


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:53 pm
Posts: 35
I was quite satisfied with their customer service. After leaving a problem question on ScattUSA's website, their rep not only emailed but also called me at the phone number I supplied and left a message for me to call him direct either on the toll free number or another paid number he left. Again I had no trouble contacting them and they went beyond normal responsiveness.

Mike Powers


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:20 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:04 am
Posts: 406
Location: Montreal, Québec, Canada
O11 wrote:
Believe me you should be very patient and persistant to reach someone on weekends! Same with emails!


Interesting. Seeing as weekend communication is impossible, Scatt_manufacturer seems to have (politely and obliquely) called you a liar.

Wonder what else in your claims is illegitimate.

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- Smith & Wesson SW22 Victory
- FAS SP607


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 Post subject: Re: NEW SCATT MODEL???
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:44 am
Posts: 67
O11 wrote:

Was reading this discussion and coudn't resist to comment. Probably scatt is at some aspects superior as product, but (apologies for the language) customer care is complete sh.t!!! Not only manufacturer itself who didn't answer to emails (may be there's some problem or wrong email) but dealer's, too. As a member of shooting club and regular competitor in regional competitions can assure you it's not only my opinion.



I am a customer and a dealer and have had outstanding customer service here in the US with SCATT. I can get someone on the phone anytime I want. I have had customers who have purchased SCATT systems from me and they say the same thing... outstanding customer service.

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Rob Tucker
http://www.TheShootersEdge.us


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