G'day,
In 1956 I, as a school kid, went to the Olympics in Melbourne Australia. I remember we were excited to support Australia's amateur sportsmen and women. I vaguely remember that one person was disqualified from the games because they earned about 5 pounds from their sport. I have never been to an Olympic Games since. These days the Olympics have nothing to do with sportsmanship but is all to do with politics and big money. If it cannot be shown on TV then the sport is not acceptable.
The mount of money being spent to run and win at the Olympics is bordering on criminal. The major winners in the TV friendly sports stand to make major money and even build a career on their wins. A classic example here in Australia is Cathy Freeman. She won one event whereas others have won multiple but Cathy is treated as a hero in Australia.
We as shooters have already lost some events from the Olympics and I understand that we will lose more events for the next Olympics after Greece. So should we be trying to support the Olympics or should we be working to make the shooting events a standalone competition? World Shooting Championships (all disciplines)?
Do you have an opinion on the Olympics and in particular the Olympic Commitee's attitude to our sports?
The Olympic Spirit is dead?
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Aussie Bob
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:51 pm
- Location: Berrigan, Australia
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Guest
Re: The Olympic Spirit is dead?
[quote="Aussie Bob"]
<<So should we be trying to support the Olympics or should we be working to make the shooting events a standalone competition? World Shooting Championships (all disciplines)?>>
As a US shooter, I'm only vaguely familiar with gun possession laws in most other countries including Australia. But if I remember correctly, the ability to own certain guns in some countries is dependent upon whether those guns are permissible for use in Olympic competition.
For instance, I seem to remember some discussions about the expected glut of .22 short caliber guns on the Aussie and British markets when this caliber is dropped from the Olympics next year. It is my understanding that private ownership of these guns will no longer be allowed once
that happens. Maybe someone out there can clarify this for me.
If this linkage between Olympic competition and private ownership in fact exists, what ramifications await gun owners in those countries that move the shooting sports to stand alone\non Olympic competitions??
<<So should we be trying to support the Olympics or should we be working to make the shooting events a standalone competition? World Shooting Championships (all disciplines)?>>
As a US shooter, I'm only vaguely familiar with gun possession laws in most other countries including Australia. But if I remember correctly, the ability to own certain guns in some countries is dependent upon whether those guns are permissible for use in Olympic competition.
For instance, I seem to remember some discussions about the expected glut of .22 short caliber guns on the Aussie and British markets when this caliber is dropped from the Olympics next year. It is my understanding that private ownership of these guns will no longer be allowed once
that happens. Maybe someone out there can clarify this for me.
If this linkage between Olympic competition and private ownership in fact exists, what ramifications await gun owners in those countries that move the shooting sports to stand alone\non Olympic competitions??
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Jim B.
What a dilemma! Firearms ownership justified by an international body whose mission is becoming less about sportsmanship and more about politics. Discussion has already been touched upon here concerning the fate of 22 short RF pistols after 2005. Similarly, I have it on good authority that the introduction of air pistol on the Olympic level was intended to coincide with the elimination of free pistol. Thankfully, that did not happen. But it goes to show how touchy the predicament can be: Invest lots of time and money pursuing a sport whose very existance can hang by a thread!
Going back to the original message, I too lament the direction of the Olympic games. I attended the Montreal Olympics in 76, having been interested at that time in judo. The games were exciting and introduced me to free pistol. I'm sure many would rather the Olympics not influence anyone in regard to taking up the shooting sports.
Another negative of the Olympics, and media shares some of the blame, is the blurring distinction between professional and truly amateur atheletes. Think about how many shooters compete out of their own pocket, and compare that with the sort of government support going on in some countries. Strangely, nations with the most severe restrictions seem to be well represented at the Olympic level. It kind of explains the paradox in which shooters from nations with relaxed regulations seem under-represented at the Olympic level despite high numbers of true amateur participation.
Going back to the original message, I too lament the direction of the Olympic games. I attended the Montreal Olympics in 76, having been interested at that time in judo. The games were exciting and introduced me to free pistol. I'm sure many would rather the Olympics not influence anyone in regard to taking up the shooting sports.
Another negative of the Olympics, and media shares some of the blame, is the blurring distinction between professional and truly amateur atheletes. Think about how many shooters compete out of their own pocket, and compare that with the sort of government support going on in some countries. Strangely, nations with the most severe restrictions seem to be well represented at the Olympic level. It kind of explains the paradox in which shooters from nations with relaxed regulations seem under-represented at the Olympic level despite high numbers of true amateur participation.
Shamateurism
Well the term "amateur" became a non-issue during the era of the Soviet bloc nations and their "Olympic" programs. I think we are quite aware that currently hockey, basketball, softball, baseball, Track & Field, shooting, swimming, soccer (football), downhill ski racing, slalom etc., etc. etc.---these are all government funded and supported sports in many nations, and to the point, it exists right here in the USA. As far as an International group trying to control firearms---look out for the worst of the bunsh---The United Nations---if they have there way there will no longer be any firearms in the hands of the everyday honest citizen of this world---witness UK, Canada, Ireland and Australia. We are worried about Sadaam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, and a few others---the UN is the worst of the lot. "UN out of the US and US out of the UN"
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Don
Olympics
I agree with what everyone has said. I protested greatly when the IOC was considering allowing pro's into the Games. They, of course, had already done this, but under the table. I commented that if this was going to be officially allowed, then make the Olympics open to anyone that wanted to compete in any sport even if they make millions a year in salary, etc. Of course, I got no reply to my letters.
I think an expanded World Championship for shooting would be great, but I would work to set up a new organization and forget the IOC and national OC's. There is already such an organization set up to handle the World Masters Games, the Police/Fire Games, etc., why not The World Shooting Championships? I would work on such an idea if asked.
The World Shooting Federation tried a few years ago to get something like this going, but it never really got off the ground. Maybe it is time to revive it?
I have also told people for the past 15+ years that eventually every shooting event in the Olympics, other than shotgun, would be done with air guns. Why else has the 5-shot air pistol developed? It is moving more and more towards that end, as far as I can tell.
If there were such a world shooting federation/championships set up, then people in the various countries where firearms are "allowed" because of their use in the Olympics, would have to work to get their laws changed.
It is a sad fact, but the IOC is just interested in the bottom line and not the athlete/sportsperson.
Hang in there. Don in Oregon
I think an expanded World Championship for shooting would be great, but I would work to set up a new organization and forget the IOC and national OC's. There is already such an organization set up to handle the World Masters Games, the Police/Fire Games, etc., why not The World Shooting Championships? I would work on such an idea if asked.
The World Shooting Federation tried a few years ago to get something like this going, but it never really got off the ground. Maybe it is time to revive it?
I have also told people for the past 15+ years that eventually every shooting event in the Olympics, other than shotgun, would be done with air guns. Why else has the 5-shot air pistol developed? It is moving more and more towards that end, as far as I can tell.
If there were such a world shooting federation/championships set up, then people in the various countries where firearms are "allowed" because of their use in the Olympics, would have to work to get their laws changed.
It is a sad fact, but the IOC is just interested in the bottom line and not the athlete/sportsperson.
Hang in there. Don in Oregon
Re: Shamateurism
Er, just for the records, the everyday honest Irish citizen can own rifles of calibre up to .270, shotguns of all types except fully automatic, and there appears to be finally some progress on the pistols front at the moment. Fingers crossed, the first licence for a pistol since '72 may be granted in the next two weeks (for a Toz 50m free pistol at that).Bob Riegl wrote: As far as an International group trying to control firearms---look out for the worst of the bunsh---The United Nations---if they have there way there will no longer be any firearms in the hands of the everyday honest citizen of this world---witness UK, Canada, Ireland and Australia. We are worried about Sadaam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, and a few others---the UN is the worst of the lot. "UN out of the US and US out of the UN"
And again, for the record, the restrictions in place have nothing to do with the UN and everything to do with the IRA. The UN, as I understand it, is going after the manufacture and sale of weapons like MP5s and so on, not Anschutz 2013s!
(And I really think that Target Talk is not the place to point out the logical error in comparing Kofi Annan with Hitler...)
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Guest
Re: Shamateurism
We have two separate issues. One is the fate of amatuer sports in general and the other is whether or not people who are not convicted criminals should have the right to own property. The old soviet block made a sham out of the amatuer sports and it was well known. Nothing in life is fair however and we have what we have. There are plenty of world class potential shooters walking around that don't even know they have the talent becasue they never get the chance to shoot. If you have the opportunity, enjoy it!
Sparks wrote:Er, just for the records, the everyday honest Irish citizen can own rifles of calibre up to .270, shotguns of all types except fully automatic, and there appears to be finally some progress on the pistols front at the moment. Fingers crossed, the first licence for a pistol since '72 may be granted in the next two weeks (for a Toz 50m free pistol at that).Bob Riegl wrote: As far as an International group trying to control firearms---look out for the worst of the bunsh---The United Nations---if they have there way there will no longer be any firearms in the hands of the everyday honest citizen of this world---witness UK, Canada, Ireland and Australia. We are worried about Sadaam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, and a few others---the UN is the worst of the lot. "UN out of the US and US out of the UN"
And again, for the record, the restrictions in place have nothing to do with the UN and everything to do with the IRA. The UN, as I understand it, is going after the manufacture and sale of weapons like MP5s and so on, not Anschutz 2013s!
(And I really think that Target Talk is not the place to point out the logical error in comparing Kofi Annan with Hitler...)
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Aussie Bob
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:51 pm
- Location: Berrigan, Australia
Guest 1,
My comments on the rapidfire and the justification of guns as a result of the Olympics.
The .22 short comes under the category of "Rimfire". In Australia we have in most states 4 categories. "Air Pistol", "Rimfire", "Centre Fire" and "Black Powder". If the gun fits into one of these categories, is equal to or less than .38", and has a barrel length of 120 mm for semi autos and 100 mm for revolvers, or longer, or if the gun is a large physical size built for target shooting eg Benneli, Walther etc then it is allowed. I have been very involved in watching the changes and how they affect us but I have not seen anything to say the .22 short will become a prohibited firearm. Some state associations have said they will keep the old Rapidfire going until there is no interest or no ammo available. I guess we will have to wait and see. A lot who had short barrel rapidfire guns did get rid of them in the buyback but people like me with my Hammerli 230 could not, due to the barrel length.
The government was encouraged to consider our situation if we did not have firearms for the Oympics but they also agreed we needed to have guns for the other international events. As a result ISSF, IPSC, 1920 (Bianchi), Single Action (Western Action) Metallic etc are all supported as acceptable competitions. So long as we have international events available and Australians want to shoot them it is likely we will continue to have firearms to shoot them with.
I think the government is having trouble now answering why, with the buybacks and prohibiting some firearms, that the gun crime rate has not decreased. I think a lot of the public who are not anti gun by "religion" are also starting to question the government's high handed attitude. Mind you Little John (Howard) our prime minister bought 4 handguns off me and I bought 6 more with the money he gave me.
Cheers from down under
Aussie Bob
My comments on the rapidfire and the justification of guns as a result of the Olympics.
The .22 short comes under the category of "Rimfire". In Australia we have in most states 4 categories. "Air Pistol", "Rimfire", "Centre Fire" and "Black Powder". If the gun fits into one of these categories, is equal to or less than .38", and has a barrel length of 120 mm for semi autos and 100 mm for revolvers, or longer, or if the gun is a large physical size built for target shooting eg Benneli, Walther etc then it is allowed. I have been very involved in watching the changes and how they affect us but I have not seen anything to say the .22 short will become a prohibited firearm. Some state associations have said they will keep the old Rapidfire going until there is no interest or no ammo available. I guess we will have to wait and see. A lot who had short barrel rapidfire guns did get rid of them in the buyback but people like me with my Hammerli 230 could not, due to the barrel length.
The government was encouraged to consider our situation if we did not have firearms for the Oympics but they also agreed we needed to have guns for the other international events. As a result ISSF, IPSC, 1920 (Bianchi), Single Action (Western Action) Metallic etc are all supported as acceptable competitions. So long as we have international events available and Australians want to shoot them it is likely we will continue to have firearms to shoot them with.
I think the government is having trouble now answering why, with the buybacks and prohibiting some firearms, that the gun crime rate has not decreased. I think a lot of the public who are not anti gun by "religion" are also starting to question the government's high handed attitude. Mind you Little John (Howard) our prime minister bought 4 handguns off me and I bought 6 more with the money he gave me.
Cheers from down under
Aussie Bob
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thenikjones
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 6:59 am
- Location: Wrexham, UK
Re: The Olympic Spirit is dead?
Handguns (except blackpowder) have been banned in Great Britain (not Northern Ireland) since 1997. Longarm Free Pistols are now legal - much to the annoyance of the Home Office - as they are technically rifles (barrel>12", overall length>24"). I wouldn't be surprised if they were banned for "getting around" the ban - the fact they comply with it is "not on".For instance, I seem to remember some discussions about the expected glut of .22 short caliber guns on the Aussie and British markets when this caliber is dropped from the Olympics next year. It is my understanding that private ownership of these guns will no longer be allowed once
that happens. Maybe someone out there can clarify this for me.
I read that Standard Pistol was introduced by the UIT (now ISSF) to give a reason for men to own multishot .22" pistols, important for some countries' licencing bodies. Women could already own them as Sport Pistol is an older event.
I understand some shotgun events are being lost after this Olympics, I think for time/space constaints.
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Mike McDaniel
IIRC, women's double trap and the running target events are goners after Athens.
My big worry about RF is that while changing the guns is a pretty good idea on the grounds of minimizing cost (one gun for RF and SP, maybe with a CF conversion), it doesn't solve the problem of finding a target bay. THOSE things are expensive. Not to mention the minor problem of the generally slow scoring if you don't have electronic scoring targets.
Maybe some sort of falling plate setup.......
My big worry about RF is that while changing the guns is a pretty good idea on the grounds of minimizing cost (one gun for RF and SP, maybe with a CF conversion), it doesn't solve the problem of finding a target bay. THOSE things are expensive. Not to mention the minor problem of the generally slow scoring if you don't have electronic scoring targets.
Maybe some sort of falling plate setup.......
Olympic spirit
Hi, Aussie Bob! Good on you for repurchasing pistols after the buyback!!!
However, I think you should do more shooting that refereeing!!!!! :))
As far as the Olympics are concerned - they are not dead yet!
To the International shooters - Yes, here in Oz we are "allowed" to keep our pistols because of the Olympics, Commonwealth Games, and World Cup events.
The TV and media definately influence the sports, however, we had a good chuckle when the Shooting sports were the first sports to collect medals, and they had to show it, and interview the shooters, as there was nothing much else to talk about!! We LOVED that!!!!!!!! :)
Mike Diamond, and Russell Mark were great ambassadors for the sport - well spoken, and well presented.
5 out of the 6 Aussie pistol shooters going to Athens are Victorians - 4 of them from my Club! That must be some sort of a record! I am eagerly waiting for it to start, when I become a real couch potato, and TV addict!!
Alex L.
However, I think you should do more shooting that refereeing!!!!! :))
As far as the Olympics are concerned - they are not dead yet!
To the International shooters - Yes, here in Oz we are "allowed" to keep our pistols because of the Olympics, Commonwealth Games, and World Cup events.
The TV and media definately influence the sports, however, we had a good chuckle when the Shooting sports were the first sports to collect medals, and they had to show it, and interview the shooters, as there was nothing much else to talk about!! We LOVED that!!!!!!!! :)
Mike Diamond, and Russell Mark were great ambassadors for the sport - well spoken, and well presented.
5 out of the 6 Aussie pistol shooters going to Athens are Victorians - 4 of them from my Club! That must be some sort of a record! I am eagerly waiting for it to start, when I become a real couch potato, and TV addict!!
Alex L.
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thenikjones
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 6:59 am
- Location: Wrexham, UK
In the UK, we were not so lucky. Shooting handguns in the Commonwealth Games in 2002 - held in the UK - was allowed, but the UK shooters needed to import/export them specifically for the event. Practice is done in Switzerland, France, IoM, Jersey, etcTo the International shooters - Yes, here in Oz we are "allowed" to keep our pistols because of the Olympics, Commonwealth Games, and World Cup events.
The media in the UK definately a problem, especially the BBC (there are both pro- and anti- newspapers). We have a celebrity quiz show on TV called "A Question of Sport". Every UK winner of a 2000 Olympic gold medal has been on at least once except the shotgun shooter (Richard Faulds?) - he hasn't been on at all.The TV and media definately influence the sports, however, we had a good chuckle when the Shooting sports were the first sports to collect medals, and they had to show it, and interview the shooters, as there was nothing much else to talk about!! We LOVED that!!!!!!!! :)
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Mike McDaniel
I beg to disagree. The Olympic Spirit hasn't died - just moved out of the Olympic Games.
The IOC started down the path to professional athletics when they allowed the Soviet bloc to send state-supported athletes. What little of the Olympic Spirit was left was shoved aside for the NBC Sports TV contract.
But we need to recall something - Pierre deCourbertin was a shooter. You want a dose of the Olympic Spirit? Try an ISSF World Championships. Want to take a bath in it? Try the World Muzzle-Loading Championships. No paid professionals or Government guns there - we've got a rule that ALL arms must be privately owned.
Fie on the IOC - they sold their soul for a TV contract. But WE didn't! So get out there and shoot!
The IOC started down the path to professional athletics when they allowed the Soviet bloc to send state-supported athletes. What little of the Olympic Spirit was left was shoved aside for the NBC Sports TV contract.
But we need to recall something - Pierre deCourbertin was a shooter. You want a dose of the Olympic Spirit? Try an ISSF World Championships. Want to take a bath in it? Try the World Muzzle-Loading Championships. No paid professionals or Government guns there - we've got a rule that ALL arms must be privately owned.
Fie on the IOC - they sold their soul for a TV contract. But WE didn't! So get out there and shoot!
Olympic shooting sports dead? The Olympic spirit certainly is. Ask a couple of quota-spot winners in Canada! Canada actually gave back quota spots! The Canadian Olympic Assoc. has now decided that if your scores are not equal to the top 12, then the spots earned aren't filled, & are turned in. How do you expect any up-and-coming shooters to strive for the "Olympic Dream" when our own government does this?
Also, Canada heads a UN organization of nations who's goal is to disarm civilians world-wide. Leaves us with little hope, especially as a lot of forgetful people re-elected a scandal-ridden, money-stealing, pig-headed Liberal - or some call it "Fiberal" government.
Also, Canada heads a UN organization of nations who's goal is to disarm civilians world-wide. Leaves us with little hope, especially as a lot of forgetful people re-elected a scandal-ridden, money-stealing, pig-headed Liberal - or some call it "Fiberal" government.
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tim s
firearm ownership
Hello all, refering back to question about ownership of pistols; her in the UK almost all pistols are banned. The exceptions are blackpowder muzzle loaders, antiques, and those with a total length of over 60cm and with a barrel of over 30cm.
This last category allows the "longarm" type; imagine a Morini (or Pardini) free pistol with 30cm balancing rods attatched. These were allowed partly because there were permissable for international competition. However ISSF standard pistols and centrefires are not.
Tim S
Exeter UK
This last category allows the "longarm" type; imagine a Morini (or Pardini) free pistol with 30cm balancing rods attatched. These were allowed partly because there were permissable for international competition. However ISSF standard pistols and centrefires are not.
Tim S
Exeter UK
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Victor
Just my 2 cents... the Olympic shooting sports may have their flaws, but they help validate and reinforce the legitimate sporting uses of firearms at a time when firearms ownership is under pressure in almost all Western countries. The Olympic games are obviously a very small part of the myraid of shooting sports, but they help keep us on the radar screen. We shouldn't give up on them. If only I could shoot well enough to qualify!
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Jim B.
There is an inherent flaw in the sporting use concept use to justify firearms ownership. In times of crisis, (ie: madman on a shooting spree) "sporting use" of firearms is portrayed as a frivolous endeavor which cannot be justified in light of "public safety". (Have we not all heard these words?? Do we not all wait in dread for the ramifications of these tragedies?? )
We all know how great the target shooting sports are, but wherever possible, they should be justified as the practice of an inalienable human right of free citizens to self defense, and to possess the necessary tools and proficiency. How many people remember when Olympic rapid fire used a human silhouette target? And don't forget the pentathalon: practical military skills for the early 20th c. calvary officer. Check out all this in the German film "Olympiad" covering the 1936 Berlin Olympics.
I know how difficult this concept can be from a political standpoint (especially in restrictive countries with an established practice of using public education for political indoctrination). The alternative is to fight a never ending defensive battle where reasonable compromise means accepting more and more restrictions.
I am indeed sorry for the many members of this forum who live in countries where such a concept is not even within living memory let alone political possibility.
We all know how great the target shooting sports are, but wherever possible, they should be justified as the practice of an inalienable human right of free citizens to self defense, and to possess the necessary tools and proficiency. How many people remember when Olympic rapid fire used a human silhouette target? And don't forget the pentathalon: practical military skills for the early 20th c. calvary officer. Check out all this in the German film "Olympiad" covering the 1936 Berlin Olympics.
I know how difficult this concept can be from a political standpoint (especially in restrictive countries with an established practice of using public education for political indoctrination). The alternative is to fight a never ending defensive battle where reasonable compromise means accepting more and more restrictions.
I am indeed sorry for the many members of this forum who live in countries where such a concept is not even within living memory let alone political possibility.
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Mike McDaniel
(insert blushing visage here)
Jim, I'll agree with you on intent, but I think that a soft-sell approach may work better. You've got to remember that in countries like the UK, self-defense is NOT considered a legal right. Armed, unarmed - it doesn't matter. Countries with that sort of mindset aren't emotionally ready for liberty at full force - they lack the strength to take the medicine that would cure them. They must be given weakened doses, in the hope that they may gain enough emotional health and clarity of mind for a cure sometime in the future.
Which is why I tend toward a more soft-sell approach. Set the hook with sport, then reel the convert in with self-protection. It's kind of like the reform of CCW laws - a wholesale repeal was just not in the cards, but it WAS possible to get a "shall-issue" law passed in Florida. Which set an example that other states could leverage. If you had told me twenty years ago that in 2004, two-thirds of the states would have freely adoped such laws, I would have thought you were on drugs. But it happened.
Kindly note that this does NOT mean an acceptance of the status quo, much less any further restrictions.
BTW, which sillouette targets are you referring to? The "coffin" targets that went out in 1989, or the very old targets that went out around 1950. I've shot the former, but only read about the latter. Hit/miss scoring - but a TWO second string. A True Test Of Manful Shooting Skill. :-)
Also BTW, Modern Pentathlon is 19th century, IIRC. Pierre deCourbertin had a romantic streak a mile wide.
Jim, I'll agree with you on intent, but I think that a soft-sell approach may work better. You've got to remember that in countries like the UK, self-defense is NOT considered a legal right. Armed, unarmed - it doesn't matter. Countries with that sort of mindset aren't emotionally ready for liberty at full force - they lack the strength to take the medicine that would cure them. They must be given weakened doses, in the hope that they may gain enough emotional health and clarity of mind for a cure sometime in the future.
Which is why I tend toward a more soft-sell approach. Set the hook with sport, then reel the convert in with self-protection. It's kind of like the reform of CCW laws - a wholesale repeal was just not in the cards, but it WAS possible to get a "shall-issue" law passed in Florida. Which set an example that other states could leverage. If you had told me twenty years ago that in 2004, two-thirds of the states would have freely adoped such laws, I would have thought you were on drugs. But it happened.
Kindly note that this does NOT mean an acceptance of the status quo, much less any further restrictions.
BTW, which sillouette targets are you referring to? The "coffin" targets that went out in 1989, or the very old targets that went out around 1950. I've shot the former, but only read about the latter. Hit/miss scoring - but a TWO second string. A True Test Of Manful Shooting Skill. :-)
Also BTW, Modern Pentathlon is 19th century, IIRC. Pierre deCourbertin had a romantic streak a mile wide.