I have noticed that with RWS, Eley and CCI, the IZH pistol I have seems to shoot more consistent with the lower-power stuff. Or rather maybe I just shoot better with it, I don't know.
Does subsonic generally shoot easier?
I have even tried a couple kinds of hyper-velocity ammo, because others said it worked disproportionately well in various guns, considering its price--even though I have read this is not a great thing to do with target pistols--but it's just an IZH anyway. And I didn't bother shooting more than a few magazines, because the stuff simply went all over.
---I have checked the screws and bolts on the gun regularly, so I know that none of them that I could reach were loose. For ammo testing I have been using a 2X field (crosshair) scope on targets at about 15 yards.
....
When I looked up the muzzle velocities they are nearly the same, but it seems like when I use the subsonic, the gun moves so much less.
~
Is subsonic ammo generally more consistent?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
Re: Is subsonic ammo generally more consistent?
This is an interesting question and dear to my heart as I manufacture suppressors and have a good deal of experience with subsonic ammo.
In a nutshell, the brand of ammo really matters with subsonic ammunition and proportionally a lot of subsonic ammoit is no more consistiant (in fact less so) than it's transsonic cousins.
I've shot most of the target and subsonic loads out there and have found that many loaded a little hot and every once in a while they will go transsonic. The major downside being that they don't have enough power to stay supersonic and drop back quickly...making them very inaccurate for distance.
Another function of subsonic ammo (at least with semi autos) is reliability in functioning. Now this may not matter to you if you are shooting a single shot pistol for some dicipline but in bullseye, timed fire events it's very critical.
When considering subsonic ammo, I suggest you get a few boxes of each brand (maybe even a brick based on your thoroughness as a tester) and shoot them for groups. Accuracy, reliability, and consistency are what matter here. It has to be accurate first, reliably function your firearm, and it's consitency is important.
In my personal tests I have found that a slight variation in consitency of speed, shot to shot, at 50 feet isn't as bad as one would think but is very telling at longer distances. Staying subsonic is the key here and if you have a lot that go supersonic in a batch, you may not have the full time to recover or it may go subsonic again with ill effects.
I have found that Remington subsonics tend to so supersonic in rifles but not in pistols, however there is a pronounced difference in the recoil impulse with it shot to shot. For my training ammo I have found that the Agulia 40 grain subsonics work well in most of my guns but not all of them. My pardini likes it, my walther likes it, my S&W 41 HATES it.
Ae to is it more accurate? I think it's the mild recoil that makes it "more accurate" along with it's not crossing the transsonic barrier at distances.
Numerically if subsonic ammo and supersonic ammo have the same FPS spread in a given lot, the subsonic ammo will have a proportionally higher spread percentage than it's faster cousin.
In a nutshell, the brand of ammo really matters with subsonic ammunition and proportionally a lot of subsonic ammoit is no more consistiant (in fact less so) than it's transsonic cousins.
I've shot most of the target and subsonic loads out there and have found that many loaded a little hot and every once in a while they will go transsonic. The major downside being that they don't have enough power to stay supersonic and drop back quickly...making them very inaccurate for distance.
Another function of subsonic ammo (at least with semi autos) is reliability in functioning. Now this may not matter to you if you are shooting a single shot pistol for some dicipline but in bullseye, timed fire events it's very critical.
When considering subsonic ammo, I suggest you get a few boxes of each brand (maybe even a brick based on your thoroughness as a tester) and shoot them for groups. Accuracy, reliability, and consistency are what matter here. It has to be accurate first, reliably function your firearm, and it's consitency is important.
In my personal tests I have found that a slight variation in consitency of speed, shot to shot, at 50 feet isn't as bad as one would think but is very telling at longer distances. Staying subsonic is the key here and if you have a lot that go supersonic in a batch, you may not have the full time to recover or it may go subsonic again with ill effects.
I have found that Remington subsonics tend to so supersonic in rifles but not in pistols, however there is a pronounced difference in the recoil impulse with it shot to shot. For my training ammo I have found that the Agulia 40 grain subsonics work well in most of my guns but not all of them. My pardini likes it, my walther likes it, my S&W 41 HATES it.
Ae to is it more accurate? I think it's the mild recoil that makes it "more accurate" along with it's not crossing the transsonic barrier at distances.
Numerically if subsonic ammo and supersonic ammo have the same FPS spread in a given lot, the subsonic ammo will have a proportionally higher spread percentage than it's faster cousin.
Subsonic IS more accurate than Hyper sonic
Remember the test pilots of old whose aircraft would vibrate like mad when approaching Mach 1? Same thing happens at 'mach' with a bullet. Len_R makes the distinction further about bullets that drop out of mach as they reach the target. I can only give results of Ransom Rest testing from pistols with barrels up to ten inches long. Shot dispersion and drift due to cross winds amplify group spread for ANY manufacturer 22 that started out transonic (mach+) and then dropped out of mach before hitting the target. My testing showed mach drop-outs the worst, mach-sustained a little better, and subsonics the best. Len_R is also on the mark about lot to lot variances for the same manufacturer's ammo. After testing just about every ammunition made in the US and most every importable brand, I have given up on US made ammo. I shoot international free, std, and rapid and only use Eley for matches and Aguila for practice.
Lonnie Meyers
Round Rock, Texas
Round Rock, Texas
-
Chris L in NC
You aren't imagining it. All pistol match .22 ammo SHOULD be subsonic. Busting the Mach isn't good for consistency. At the other end of the scale, 1000-yard rifle bullets must stay SUPERsonic because if they drop back through the Mach, the aerodynamics are sufficient to keyhole them.
As you've seen, hypervelocity ammo is not for matches. Hypervelocity loads are mostly marketing hooey in my opinion because I'm not aware of any scientific tests showing they're more humane for hunting small game. In my opinion they are fine for defensive use--I keep CCI Stingers in my Walther TPH--because they are more likely to penetrate bony structures surrounding the central nervous system (translation: hopefully they'll punch though the skull and into the brain of an aggressor more reliably than HV or SV). I would think twice about shooting hypervelocity or even normal US cheap stuff regularly in a European target pistol. Ray MacDougall (sorry if I misspelled it, Raymac) has dealt in and repaired a ton of Walther GSPs and reports seeing cracked frames from too much high-velocity, as opposed to standard-velocity. Here in the US the Wal-Mart $.02/round cartons of .22 are unfortunately the HV stuff so I pay .04 or so for SV; at least it's more accurate.
Assuming that what you want is high scores, what you do is test, with a Ransom Rest if at all possible, not only different brands, not only different types of different brands, but different LOTS of the same type. I don't have access to a RR so I use what functions best in my GSP. With Federal Gold Medal, the second round often won't pick up, but it always works with CCI Standard Velocity so long as I clean the pistol every 500 rounds or so. I figure that CCI Green Tag or Pistol Match is more accurate than SV so I use those at 50. Most anything will do at 25m.
As you've seen, hypervelocity ammo is not for matches. Hypervelocity loads are mostly marketing hooey in my opinion because I'm not aware of any scientific tests showing they're more humane for hunting small game. In my opinion they are fine for defensive use--I keep CCI Stingers in my Walther TPH--because they are more likely to penetrate bony structures surrounding the central nervous system (translation: hopefully they'll punch though the skull and into the brain of an aggressor more reliably than HV or SV). I would think twice about shooting hypervelocity or even normal US cheap stuff regularly in a European target pistol. Ray MacDougall (sorry if I misspelled it, Raymac) has dealt in and repaired a ton of Walther GSPs and reports seeing cracked frames from too much high-velocity, as opposed to standard-velocity. Here in the US the Wal-Mart $.02/round cartons of .22 are unfortunately the HV stuff so I pay .04 or so for SV; at least it's more accurate.
Assuming that what you want is high scores, what you do is test, with a Ransom Rest if at all possible, not only different brands, not only different types of different brands, but different LOTS of the same type. I don't have access to a RR so I use what functions best in my GSP. With Federal Gold Medal, the second round often won't pick up, but it always works with CCI Standard Velocity so long as I clean the pistol every 500 rounds or so. I figure that CCI Green Tag or Pistol Match is more accurate than SV so I use those at 50. Most anything will do at 25m.
Being more consistent is a function of price, not speed. The more you pay for the ammo, the more quality control goes into producing consistent performance. Most low end ammo is consistent enough throughout a particular lot. Once you find a lot that performs well in your gun, buy a case or two.
Just because you pay a bunch for a box of shells, doesn't necessarily mean that it will be accurate in your gun. Barrels do have a preference for certain component combinations. A few years ago CCI-SV was the gold standard for bullseye shooters. While most guns shot that vintage product to impressively small groups, some guns wouldn't hold 5 inches at 50 yards with it. The only way to be sure you are using the best for your gun is to test. Testing should be done at the distance you plan to shoot. Testing free pistol match ammo at 15 yards is a waste of time. Bullet flight is not simple geometry. Tight 25 meter groups can open up to unusable levels at 50 meters. A Ransom Rest is nice but you can get usable results using a scope and sand bags by comparing relative group sizes. A box of 50 for each ammo type. Clean and re-foul the barrel for each type.
Lots of opinion on trans-sonic effects is out there. Transition actually starts at Mach 0.8 and continues up through Mach-1.2. Most 22 ammo falls into that range. High velocity does not necessarily mean low accuracy. I don't know about hyper velocity. Testing is the only way to discover how a particular lot of ammunition will perform in your pistol. Many of the IZH-35 pistols have some relatively soft steel in them. HV in them will accelerate slide and breach block wear and subsequent slam firing. On the other hand, a friend put 140,000 rounds of American Eagle HV through his Pardini before needing to replace the recoil buffer.
Keep in mind that you will always loose more points to bad technique than you ever will to your ammo.
Larry
Just because you pay a bunch for a box of shells, doesn't necessarily mean that it will be accurate in your gun. Barrels do have a preference for certain component combinations. A few years ago CCI-SV was the gold standard for bullseye shooters. While most guns shot that vintage product to impressively small groups, some guns wouldn't hold 5 inches at 50 yards with it. The only way to be sure you are using the best for your gun is to test. Testing should be done at the distance you plan to shoot. Testing free pistol match ammo at 15 yards is a waste of time. Bullet flight is not simple geometry. Tight 25 meter groups can open up to unusable levels at 50 meters. A Ransom Rest is nice but you can get usable results using a scope and sand bags by comparing relative group sizes. A box of 50 for each ammo type. Clean and re-foul the barrel for each type.
Lots of opinion on trans-sonic effects is out there. Transition actually starts at Mach 0.8 and continues up through Mach-1.2. Most 22 ammo falls into that range. High velocity does not necessarily mean low accuracy. I don't know about hyper velocity. Testing is the only way to discover how a particular lot of ammunition will perform in your pistol. Many of the IZH-35 pistols have some relatively soft steel in them. HV in them will accelerate slide and breach block wear and subsequent slam firing. On the other hand, a friend put 140,000 rounds of American Eagle HV through his Pardini before needing to replace the recoil buffer.
Keep in mind that you will always loose more points to bad technique than you ever will to your ammo.
Larry
-
mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hifuntoz wrote:Being more consistent is a function of price, not speed. The more you pay for the ammo, the more quality control goes into producing consistent performance. Larry
Actually, being consistent is a function of price and speed. The price is obvious. When any object goes through the "sound barrier" there is vibration. Accuracy is improved when a bullet leaves the barrel supersonic and enters the target supersonic, or if it leaves the barrel subsonic and enters the target the same way. The act of dropping under the speed of sound decreases accuracy. That's why long range rifle accuracy is improved with higher speed bullets. 1,000 yards is a long way to go at supersonic speed.
Mike
Wichita KS