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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:32 am 
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Though I do well in my practise range , I have difficulty implementing my technique at competition shooting range.

I am not able to acheive the stability in aiming area which is my strength and my subsconscious mind end firing in haste. And thus lots of 8s.

During training, My arm stops automatically in aiming area after some shots but not in competition. Do I need to be more delibrate in shooting at competition instead of relying solely in subconscious shooting? Delibrate shooting does not produce the best shoots though in my experience.

I feel no nervousness during matches anymore and infact I am in the moment.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:15 am 
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Location: Scottsdale AZ
No. You need to shoot faster so you don't have time to screw yourself up with "deliberateness."


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:40 am 
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Location: 11264 Egypt
Rover wrote:
No. You need to shoot faster so you don't have time to screw yourself up with "deliberateness."


Good advice !


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:45 am 
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Rover wrote:
No. You need to shoot faster so you don't have time to screw yourself up with "deliberateness."

I shoot faster in training. And I am able to score 570+. When I follow the same pace, I screw up. I am unable to acheive the same stability that I have in training.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:19 am 
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Location: 11264 Egypt
amarinder wrote:
Rover wrote:
No. You need to shoot faster so you don't have time to screw yourself up with "deliberateness."

I shoot faster in training. And I am able to score 570+. When I follow the same pace, I screw up. I am unable to acheive the same stability that I have in training.


Could be 'confidence' or something taking up some of your brain's RAM ?

_


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:54 am 
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Posts: 1507
Location: Massachusetts
amarinder wrote:
Rover wrote:
No. You need to shoot faster so you don't have time to screw yourself up with "deliberateness."

I shoot faster in training. And I am able to score 570+. When I follow the same pace, I screw up. I am unable to acheive the same stability that I have in training.

There are only possibilities:

1) Your mental game is not solid. You need to be in the same mental state (or at least close enough) when you compete as when you practice. Easier said than done... If you don't trust & follow the shot process you've developed that works so well in practice when you get to a match, you won't shoot the same.

2) Your physical state is different: Are the matches at the same time of day as when you practice? Do you eat or drink differently? Do you sleep as well before a match? Do you have a long drive to get to the matches?

3) The range conditions are different: Lighting, temperature, bench height, target system could all have a minor effect.

Deliberateness is tricky. There is a fine line between executing a shot smoothly (but quickly), and forcing a shot off, which will tank your scores in a hurry. You certainly shouldn't be throwing it into your shot process in matches.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:43 pm 
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Even though you might not feel uncomfortable in competition, your conscious mind knows that this in not training or practice. Until you can develop the confidence in a match to relie on your training your scores will always be lower. This is normal. It takes a real confident athlete to excel in competition, knowing that eyes are watching their performance.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:32 am 
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Gwhite wrote:
amarinder wrote:
Rover wrote:
No. You need to shoot faster so you don't have time to screw yourself up with "deliberateness."

I shoot faster in training. And I am able to score 570+. When I follow the same pace, I screw up. I am unable to acheive the same stability that I have in training.

There are only possibilities:

1) Your mental game is not solid. You need to be in the same mental state (or at least close enough) when you compete as when you practice. Easier said than done... If you don't trust & follow the shot process you've developed that works so well in practice when you get to a match, you won't shoot the same.

2) Your physical state is different: Are the matches at the same time of day as when you practice? Do you eat or drink differently? Do you sleep as well before a match? Do you have a long drive to get to the matches?

3) The range conditions are different: Lighting, temperature, bench height, target system could all have a minor effect.

Deliberateness is tricky. There is a fine line between executing a shot smoothly (but quickly), and forcing a shot off, which will tank your scores in a hurry. You certainly shouldn't be throwing it into your shot process in matches.


I think Point 1 and 3 are the reasons. I am not able to execute the technique that I have developed in practice primarily because of change in light, target box(green boundary instead of no boundary in practise) , slight desperation. I was unable to stabalize the first stop above aiming area like I usually do, and also in aiming area, the gun wasn't pausing which is my strength.

These were my 60 shots. Series 2,3 and 6 are my natural except the 7s. First series in matches is usually like this only.
Image


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:45 am 
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Location: Scottsdale AZ
You need a drink before your matches.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:12 am 
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Location: Lisbon, Portugal
amarinder

Your worst shoots are all low and left. That means that you are "forcing" them.
Work on detecting those bad shots before they happen, like when you are holding to long and still try to shoot.
If something doesn't fell right, abort the shot, breath, and start over.

Consistency is the key.

Hope this helps


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:47 am 
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Location: Mount Vernon Ohio
Let me offer this, You are trying to shoot a perfect center shot. You try to spend much time getting the right sight alignment and sight picture, then squeeze off that perfect shot.

Trigger squeeze trumps all else. Rather than get the sights aligned then squeeze; Allow your trigger squeeze to align the sights within your aiming area. Just the act of squeezing should be what it takes to steer the front sight into the rear notch. Press and hold the trigger with each shot. HOLD it back, through recoil and recovery. Find the front sight again, ease off pressure on the trigger as the front sight settles in your sight picture. When you feel the click of sear reset, start applying more press on the trigger which drives the sight into perfect alignment within your sight picture. Bang and hold, repeat.

HOLD through the recoil and recovery. Use the reset to get sight picture close and the press/squeeze to perfect the alignment.

Then start looking for places to put the large trophy.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:44 pm 
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Posts: 57
motorcycle_dan wrote:
Let me offer this, You are trying to shoot a perfect center shot. You try to spend much time getting the right sight alignment and sight picture, then squeeze off that perfect shot.

Trigger squeeze trumps all else. Rather than get the sights aligned then squeeze; Allow your trigger squeeze to align the sights within your aiming area. Just the act of squeezing should be what it takes to steer the front sight into the rear notch. Press and hold the trigger with each shot. HOLD it back, through recoil and recovery. Find the front sight again, ease off pressure on the trigger as the front sight settles in your sight picture. When you feel the click of sear reset, start applying more press on the trigger which drives the sight into perfect alignment within your sight picture. Bang and hold, repeat.

HOLD through the recoil and recovery. Use the reset to get sight picture close and the press/squeeze to perfect the alignment.

Then start looking for places to put the large trophy.


Oh boy. Wish my coach talked to me like that instead of saying "hmmmm". Over the past 2 days, I have read some articles and antolli highlighted the same point i.e. to start with trigger press first and then focus on SA and ensure same muscular tone. Let fire happen and bring SA to same as before shot. You said the same and I am off to practising the next 10,000 shots this way.

Just one thing, What does " When you feel the click of sear reset." mean. Can you explain.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:57 pm 
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Location: Mount Vernon Ohio
amarinder wrote:
What does " When you feel the click of sear reset." mean. Can you explain.


You have been pressing trigger to release hammer then allowing reset to happen at some point during recoil and recovery. If you press and hold, you have all 4 fingers stabilizing during recoil and recovery. Make resetting the sear part of the next shot.

When it fires the cycling of the action re-cocks the hammer as well as activating the disconnector. (otherwise it would continue firing full auto when pressed) In order to fire another shot, You must release the trigger (to re-set the disconnector) which will allow the sear to disengage the hammer when on the next pull of trigger.

Press and hold takes some practice but it provides a much more stable grip. Even with air pistol, I press and hold until I call my shot. Then reset and load next shot. You can practice dry fire my holding the trigger back and cycling the action. You will feel and hear an audible click. Use this slow reset to get sights and target back into coarse alignment. Once reset use your press to perfect the sight alignment.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:25 pm 
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motorcycle_dan wrote:
amarinder wrote:
What does " When you feel the click of sear reset." mean. Can you explain.


You have been pressing trigger to release hammer then allowing reset to happen at some point during recoil and recovery. If you press and hold, you have all 4 fingers stabilizing during recoil and recovery. Make resetting the sear part of the next shot.

When it fires the cycling of the action re-cocks the hammer as well as activating the disconnector. (otherwise it would continue firing full auto when pressed) In order to fire another shot, You must release the trigger (to re-set the disconnector) which will allow the sear to disengage the hammer when on the next pull of trigger.

Press and hold takes some practice but it provides a much more stable grip. Even with air pistol, I press and hold until I call my shot. Then reset and load next shot. You can practice dry fire my holding the trigger back and cycling the action. You will feel and hear an audible click. Use this slow reset to get sights and target back into coarse alignment. Once reset use your press to perfect the sight alignment.


You meant in layman language;
Press the trigger and hold the trigger. While holding trigger, call the shot. Once done, release the trigger and move to next shot.

Am I right?

Read you previous posts. You seems like a go-to-guy. Glad to have you here...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:00 pm 
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Location: Mount Vernon Ohio
I call every shot in slow fire.
In sustained fire I do not take the time to call each shot. Just trust my trigger squeeze to perfect the sights within my aiming area..

1. In sustained fire What I do. (gun empty, action open, magazine loaded but not inserted)
2. Squeeze and hold trigger, Lower slide onto empty chamber.
3. Insert loaded magazine, rack the slide to chamber a round. (trigger still squeezed)
4. Raise, Find sights in aiming area.
5. Slowly ease pressure on trigger as I align sights and my sight picture.
6. Feel and hear the click of disconnect reset.
7. Reverse pressure on the trigger (coming back rather than going out to reset) allow my increased squeeze to perfect my sight alignment.
8. It goes Bang, as I hold with all four fingers through recoil and recovery.
9. Pistol should be pointed up and slightly left (for a right handed shooter)
10. Eye finds front sight, Arm brings sights and target to my sight picture,
Go back to 5 and repeat until all rounds expended.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:55 pm 
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So amarinder, Did you get a chance to practice the press and hold technique? It is different. Often we default back to allowing the trigger finger to relax and it resets during recoil. Keeping it back takes some practice but it works and one of the side benefits is that you have better control at all times during live fire.

I don't believe you can release pressure on JUST your trigger finger to let it reset, without subconsciously relaxing the other 3 fingers at the same time. When those other three relax, the gun gets wonky in your hand. Have you ever had to search for your front sight (or dot). It was not where it normally goes after a shot. That is an indication that something moved in your hand. This whole sport evolves around consistency. Your ability to make one shot exactly the same as then next 1000 or so. Anything we can do to reduce those variables will tighten our groups.

I say; "Do not reset the disconnect during recoil." Too many other things going on. Wait until you are starting to line up the next shot. At that point you can consciously relax just the one finger while the others remain firm. Use that conscious slow release of the trigger to get your sights into coarse alignment. As soon as it clicks and resets, start adding pressure to bring the next shot sights into perfection.

Another advantage of this technique is consistency of cycling. A firm grip all way through recoil and recovery will ensure all the energy of the fired round goes into extracting and ejecting the spent case. An occasional stove pipe malfunction often can be traced back to a weakened grip that allowed the pistol to flop in your grip rather than properly cycling the action.

A safer method to practice is just one shot drills. Action open, Grip and squeeze trigger. Lower slide onto empty chamber. Insert mag with one round. Keeping trigger squeezed, cycle the action to chamber the one round. Raise, find the sights, coarse align as you ease pressure on the trigger, when it resets, reverse and start adding pressure as you perfect the sights. It fires, Trigger should still be held to the rear.

You can use Yellow #4-6 dry wall anchors as dry fire device for rim fire guns. They will chamber from the magazine and give the firing pin something to expend the energy against. They extract and eject just like a spent case. Once you beat the snot out of them with the firing pin, they still work as dry wall anchors. about $3 per hundred


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:18 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:04 pm
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Location: Massachusetts
I bought a box of the anchors a while back off of Amazon:

https://smile.amazon.com/Hillman-370326-Ribbed-Plastic-100-Pack/dp/B000H5WVCS

Interestingly enough, the page shows "Amazon's Choice for 22lr snap caps"


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:18 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:46 am
Posts: 57
motorcycle_dan wrote:
So amarinder, Did you get a chance to practice the press and hold technique? It is different. Often we default back to allowing the trigger finger to relax and it resets during recoil. Keeping it back takes some practice but it works and one of the side benefits is that you have better control at all times during live fire.

I don't believe you can release pressure on JUST your trigger finger to let it reset, without subconsciously relaxing the other 3 fingers at the same time. When those other three relax, the gun gets wonky in your hand. Have you ever had to search for your front sight (or dot). It was not where it normally goes after a shot. That is an indication that something moved in your hand. This whole sport evolves around consistency. Your ability to make one shot exactly the same as then next 1000 or so. Anything we can do to reduce those variables will tighten our groups.

I say; "Do not reset the disconnect during recoil." Too many other things going on. Wait until you are starting to line up the next shot. At that point you can consciously relax just the one finger while the others remain firm. Use that conscious slow release of the trigger to get your sights into coarse alignment. As soon as it clicks and resets, start adding pressure to bring the next shot sights into perfection.

Another advantage of this technique is consistency of cycling. A firm grip all way through recoil and recovery will ensure all the energy of the fired round goes into extracting and ejecting the spent case. An occasional stove pipe malfunction often can be traced back to a weakened grip that allowed the pistol to flop in your grip rather than properly cycling the action.

A safer method to practice is just one shot drills. Action open, Grip and squeeze trigger. Lower slide onto empty chamber. Insert mag with one round. Keeping trigger squeezed, cycle the action to chamber the one round. Raise, find the sights, coarse align as you ease pressure on the trigger, when it resets, reverse and start adding pressure as you perfect the sights. It fires, Trigger should still be held to the rear.

You can use Yellow #4-6 dry wall anchors as dry fire device for rim fire guns. They will chamber from the magazine and give the firing pin something to expend the energy against. They extract and eject just like a spent case. Once you beat the snot out of them with the firing pin, they still work as dry wall anchors. about $3 per hundred



Well I tried your method of starting with trigger and aligning the sights. Also, holding the trigger fire after release instead of relaxing the finger. I can see the difference. Need to do this aspect delibrately and repetitively.

Though I pull the trigger too quicky sometime which totally disturbs the sights even though shot ends up in 10 but the concept is wrong.

I am working on maintaining constant muscle tone from lowering, stabalizing and follow through. That seems to be the mantra.


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