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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Turku, Finland
I sold my Morini- freepistol as I don´t shoot that event much these days (local national team member bought it, will be much better use for that gun)

I like to have a 50m pistol in my cabinet. Not interested in investing a lot, 0-200€ is my price range in this.
Candidates: Hämmerli 152 - 120€, Walther FP - 300€ (asking price, I´m not going to pay that much) and Toz35 - 200€

My first 50m pistol was Toz35. Shot my record with it, but I was training a lot more back then (ca. 1995) Toz would be a safe bet, but Hämmerli and Walther interest me more now, partly because they are so unusual and somewhat rare here these days.

I have read that the Walther FP trigger system is unreliable, boards brake and no replacements are available. I found a zip package here that has board layout etc. for new electronics board. Making new boards wont be a problem. But how is that Walther pistol otherwise? I´v read that it is heavy, but not much more about ergonomics, accuracy etc. Any comments about it? Is Hämmerli 152 more reliable? I guess spare parts are more available for it than Walther or Toz?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:30 pm 
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Location: New Zealand
Get the Toz.

Only consider the Hammerli or Walther if you are an electronics expert and you don't mind the possibility that you will have a non working pistol at some stage and that you will have to fix it yourself.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:36 pm 
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Sounds like you have the interest and capability to work with either the Walther or Hämmerli, at least in terms of the electronics. Since you already owned a Morini, did you like using the electronic trigger?
If so, that tips the scale quite a bit towards the Hämmerli or Walther.
I've found the Hämmerli 152 to be very reliable.
The build quality of either the Hämmerli or the Walther is going to vastly superior to the Toz. That may be especially interesting to you if you appreciate fine quality firearms. I honestly enjoyed just cleaning the Hämmerli after a day of shooting, just to appreciate it's excellent quality and beauty. (I know, some people consider this silly.)
The issue with parts is often taken out of context from the inherent quality of the firearm itself. The Walther and Hämmerli are superior in terms of quality of steel, fabrication, heat treatment, fitting, finishing, etc. So, breakages are inherently much less likely.
Regarding ergonomics, I like the Hämmerli best. The factory grips are very good, plus there have been many makers who have built for the Hämmerli. It's not uncommon to find cheap, used grips by Morini, Bowler, and others, plus new grips by Rink (if memory serves me).
The only thing I needed to do to the Hämmerli during the years I owned one, was to replace the firing pin spring (previous owner stored it cocked) and change out the battery.

Anyhow, just personal opinion based on my experiences and observations.
Best Regards,
Jim


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:17 pm
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Location: Turku, Finland
I cant say I´m an electronics expert, but I have repaired several electronic appliances (TVs, vcrs, camcorders, computers etc) over the years. Also built some simple circuits for my projects. So making spare electronics boards for the Walther is no problem. I have read that the Hämmerli board is encased in epoxy, but also that they don´t brake so often. Most of the problems seem to be about the solenoid being dirty..

Shooting with electronic triggers is not new to me either. Bought a Morini CM162E when they first arrived in the 90´s. Then sold it five years ago and bought LP10e. Now I shoot AP with Morini CM162EI. CM84e trigger was ok, alltough I prefer more commonly available batteries than that 15V battery that the old CM162E and CM84e use.

I had a MC55-1 free pistol for a while. That one was really nicely made compared to Toz.
Toz is well made where it counts and rest is "good enough"

If the Walther FP operates as it should, how many rounds will it fire with fresh battery? I guess Hämmerli battery lasts a lot longer.
How do the trigger feel of Hämmerli and Walther compare to Toz - or CM84e?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:18 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:53 pm
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When you compare build quality and you are looking at a Soviet block item, you need to understand their design philosophy and how that interplays with western product comparisons....... Soviet products are exceptionally well built, they are immaculately machined and hand fitted WHERE IT MATTERS, the TOZ is a design masterpiece looking at the trigger and barell, otherwise it has the look of something beaten into shape by Neanderthal blacksmiths over hollow logs with rocks. It has impeccable build quality, but its build estetics are a bit agricultural..... Try to look at them with a Soviet eye and you will start seeing absolute masterpieces of design........

Buy another TOZ to shoot.

Buy the Hamerli to fiddle with.

Buy the Walther for sympathy and access to loaner guns.......


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:06 am 
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Location: Lisbon, Portugal
spektr wrote:
Buy another TOZ to shoot.

Buy the Hamerli to fiddle with.

Buy the Walther for sympathy and access to loaner guns.......

Best advice given so far!!!! Can't agree more!

If that is not an option, get the TOZ.

Best Regards


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:59 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:16 pm
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Location: Santa Fe, Argentina
I´ve owned a MC-55-1, with which I shot my PB. Parted with it when I quit shooting some years ago.

When returning, OBVIOUSLY the new owner wouldn´t sell it back, so I had to settle for a TOZ, which are common in my country.

And here is the caveat: They are not meant for small hands or (my case) meaty hands with short fingers. Tehere is not enough wood in the grip that can be removed to have a good purchase on the trigger blade. Its ergonomics, while justly praised for those who can accomodate, are not for me or my kind, and if you had a MC-55-1, take into account that they´re two radicallly different pistols.

I had to carve into the back of the metal frame, and finally gave up, fortunately I got a Hammerli 150 which I´ve been using since with good results, that I think owes more to the comfort I get when I grip it than to my talent as a shooter nowadays.

So, before purchasing, I´d give them a try side by side, and choose whichever suits you better in the hand, apart from the fact that you will tailor your grips to your taste.

And I still can´t believe the prices you quoted!!!

By the way, I had the opportunity to shoot a Walther FP-1 and couldn´t find ANY redeeming points in it as a shooter, and that was at a time when I was consistently doing 540+. I found it giving a sensation of "heaviness", and its balance I found it terrible.

Good luck


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:55 pm 
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With all due respect, I beg to differ regarding the TOZ. I have owned about a half dozen of them over the years. From my experience, they are the free pistols for the tinkerer.
Just search the archives to see the amount of time and effort (AKA: tinkering) expended to make the TOZ more user friendly. I have also found that they tend to break down most frequently of any free pistol. As far as being built well where it counts, almost any TOZ user can attest to crooked sights. To me, this is distracting enough to require "tinkering" to address. Even with this fix, click adjustments remain crude. But, given the larger average grouping of the barrel, maybe that's not too important.
I've seen many misfires caused by misalignment of the breech block to the chamber, the evidence being firing pin strikes less than ideally located on the cartridge rim. The root of the problem is lousy heat treatment on the bearing cam of the breech block operating lever. The soft steel cam justs wears out and proper lock up suffers.
None of these problems has occured on any of my Hämmerli free pistols.

But, as the saying goes, "your mileage may vary".

One more consideration, since we are talking about used firearms. For the aforementioned reasons and more, one is more likely to encounter a TOZ that has been "bubba'd" by a well meaning but under qualified hack.

Perhaps Renzo puts it best by suggesting making your choice by what fits you best.

Many people confuse the MC-55 with the TOZ, leading to what I humorously refer to as the "myth of the TOZ". The MC-55 is in a much higher class, with great attention to quality. If you can, look up the manual for the MC-55 and read the specifications in regard to expected life cycle of the critical parts, etc. Very interesting!

But, we're all talking opinion, so no offense taken or intended as we trade our thoughts.

Respectfully,
Jim


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:51 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 145
Location: Turku, Finland
Bought a Hämmerli 152 today (actually traded to Benelli b76 9mm pistol)

Cost was bit more than that 120€, but this one has metal parts in good condition and grip somewhat fits my hand. With that other pistol.. who knows.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:16 pm
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Location: Santa Fe, Argentina
You won´t regret your purchase.

By the way, you may consider painting it blue and yellow. It may bring you some extra luck...................

Happy 2018!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:17 pm
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Location: Turku, Finland
Not going to paint, I like wood texture. Why yellow?

btw, pistol came with muzzle break. Looks similar to 160 model break, but all black.
Were there factory- or aftermarket tuning parts?

Happy new year!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:22 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:15 pm
Posts: 79
Location: Old Europe
renzo wrote:
By the way, you may consider painting it blue and yellow.

In our swedish national flag colours, why?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:44 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:16 pm
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Location: Santa Fe, Argentina
I was making a joke and I wasn´t succesful, sorry.

Mr. Skanaker´s own 152 was painted like that (him being Swedish).


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