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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:11 pm
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I have been working with the concept of Flow, or in the zone, with my AP and trigger stage loading.

First of all, I think Flow does exist although I find it difficult to define. I have read the work by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi and find the empirical data as it relates to shooting not well defined. Most shooters think flow does exist but do not experience it as frequently as they would like. To assist with this thread I would loosely define flow as the the time in the shot process in which the shot breaks without conscience thought; it seems as if the gun shoots itself. Poor but workable framework....

So, to the discussion. My coach recommended that I reduce my first stage trigger load to about 200 grams and put about 315 grams of load on the second stage. He then recommend that I preload the second stage during the shot process and let my subconscious break the shot or shut the shot down if my "observation" of the unfolding of the shot indicated to abort. I worked with this for several days and gathered the following observations and data:

The load on the second stage seemed to be to great to overcome during some shots and the shot would not break without active thinking to do so... active mind kicked and said "dam" is this going to break? so much for the subconscious working

I increased the first stage load to 300 grams and 215 grams on the second stage. This seemed to work better as the load was more easy to overcome... flow was induced more frequently on shots. If this worked maybe more is better...so

I increased load further on the first stage to 400 grams and 115 grams on the second stage... this produced shots breaking before my hold settled and did not increase flow. It seemed that I did not have enough resolution on sensing second stage weight and lost shots.

From my testing it seems that a a preload on the second stage in which greater load exists, does not help induce flow and that this method may be a misunderstanding of proper trigger release while in the state of flow. It seems better to view trigger load as the first stage is loading the trigger and the second stage provides the final load to overcome for the shot to break and that load should be within tolerances of subconscious load fidelity and sensing. Preload of the second stage also indicates a potential breaking down of the shot release into 3 different zones and my view is that the second stage break of the shot in flow should be continuous and uninterrupted otherwise flow is interrupted.

Thoughts?

Mark


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 1:34 pm
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Location: White Sulphur Springs, MT, USA
Quote:
I worked with this for several days


Seems a rather limited trial.

Find the balance of first/second stage load that you prefer, then work with it for several hundred rounds (takes me minimum of 500) to see if you can consistently achieve the sub-conscious trigger release.

When "in the zone" or "in flow" I can shoot my M1 Garand with 4.5 pound trigger with sub-conscious control. Just doesn't happen often enough, as you are finding out. The key is making it repeatable more often through more shooting, or dry firing.

Find a "trigger word, or better, picture" in your mind to use to initiate the trigger release. If you find yourself thinking of anything else before the shot is fired, reject the shot and start over. Takes many repetitions before it begins to become "habit".


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:28 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:13 pm
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Location: Dallas, Texas
Two observations: First, flow happens. It is not a time period. It happens after hundreds of repetitions; it's how you drive in the rain -completely focused and letting your body do what needs to be done, without thinking of the details of every movement. Your body responds because you're focused on the road and traffic. When shooting, flow needs to happen at least from the time you settle on your aiming area. It's not limited to the shot breaking. Second, as the previous reply stated, you need to practice your trigger release hundreds of times. Dry fire is your friend. Then, flow will happen.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:15 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:04 pm
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Location: Massachusetts
The thing I use as an analogy is tying your shoe laces. It's a complex action, requiring both hands to be doing different things at the same time. If you were parked barefoot in a dark room, you would probably have trouble describing the necessary actions over the phone to someone. If you tried to analyze it while doing it, the odds are good that you'd mess it up.

Yet most people do it every day without any conscious thought. It doesn't require the level of precision that shooting a 10 does, but when was the last time you "missed" at tying your shoe laces? You didn't get that way by analyzing the process, or by reading books about it. You got that way by practicing it A LOT.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:38 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:44 pm
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Location: Costa Rica, Central America
Perfecting that fine MOTOR/MUSCLE MEMORY is what precision 10 meter airpistol/air rifle is all about...


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:02 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:02 pm
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Reya Kempley wrote about something similar in July:

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/5/4/pay-attention/

Former Olympic shooting coach Bill Pullum discusses the 'flow' concept at length in the USWIRO book "Schiesssportschule Dialogues Vol I.

Your analyses seem similar to what they describe?

I'll attempt to find the exact passages from his interview in the book where he describes it, and put it here for you.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:11 pm
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dc.fireman wrote:
Reya Kempley wrote about something similar in July:

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/5/4/pay-attention/

Former Olympic shooting coach Bill Pullum discusses the 'flow' concept at length in the USWIRO book "Schiesssportschule Dialogues Vol I.

Your analyses seem similar to what they describe?

I'll attempt to find the exact passages from his interview in the book where he describes it, and put it here for you.



Yes this is very close to what I was working on. Thanks for the link. Flow does not not need to be "on" for the full length of the match. The mind wanders and I find i need to collapse my focus to the front sight as my hold settles for each shot to induce or allow flow to happen. This is when I really want my attention, flow and the subconscious to work in the break of the shot. If my mind is still active and will not settle as i focus all my attention on the front sight, I abort the shot.

What I was working on with the trigger loading was removal of any obstacles that would pull me out of attention and focus on the front sight.. too much load on the second stage could pull me out and I would have to abort the shot....


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