TargetTalk

A forum to talk about Olympic style shooting, rifle or pistol, 10 meters to 50 meters, and whatever is in between. Hosted by Pilkguns.com
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:59 am
Posts: 511
Those of us who shoot Rapid Fire know there's a desperate shortage of ranges set up for it. The USA is particularly bad - I doubt there are more than a dozen functioning target bays in the entire country of 300+ million people - but the situation elsewhere isn't wonderful, either.

Today, the problems with RF are twofold:
1. Target bay costs. A turning target setup is $3-4K USD. Prohibitive for many small clubs. We can omit electronic scoring, that's big money.

2. Slow scoring. Shoot fast...but you have to score every two series. After EVERY series if you are trying to use fixed targets and a target timer.

Recommended solutions:
1. Standardize on a fixed target bay. This knocks the cost down considerably. Fixed targets are cheap, turning targets are expensive, electronic targets are backbreaking.

2. Time is defined at the firing point. Today, time is defined at the targets...and those of us who have shot RF have all had a shot fired at 3.95 seconds that was scored a miss, because it took 0.1 seconds to go 25m to the targets. Defining the time at the firing point allows us to use cheap ($100-ish) and readily available shot timers for timing. Even a large match could be run with them.

3. Fixed penalty for late shots. The headache with using a shot timer is that if a shot is fired late, you don't know which shot was fired late. Was it the 8...or the 10? A fixed penalty would allow a shooter to fire an entire 30-shot half-course, then go down and score. What that penalty should be is another question. 10 points? 10 points in an 8 second string, 9 at 6 seconds, 8 at 4 seconds?

We're going to have to face facts...RF may be the red-headed stepchild of ISSF pistol, but it's now 50% of the men's program. We need to make it work a lot better.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:40 pm
Posts: 252
great ideas!

even better is to use falling targets like in biathlon, because the TV coverage fails to show groups or hits anyway!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:16 am
Posts: 153
Location: Central Texas
I actually really like the idea of the falling plates. Basically it's the same way the finals work now isn't (scoring is either a hit or a miss correct?)?

-Jenrick


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:54 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:13 pm
Posts: 1823
Location: Sydney, Australia
Mike M. wrote:
...and those of us who have shot RF have all had a shot fired at 3.95 seconds that was scored a miss...

Not if the range is ISSF compliant: suggest you read ANNEX – RULES FOR PAPER TARGET SCORING, 2.5.1 a and 2.5.2.
For a 4-seconds series on paper targets, your shot could be fired at 4.1 seconds (or even a shade more) and still be a scoring shot.
(EST gives you 0.3 seconds at the target.)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:16 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:26 am
Posts: 691
Location: Australia
There's a compromise for anyone who would care to develop it.

Static targets
Timing indicated by lights
Scoring on the paper
Late shots indicated by a simple detector - doesn't need to be good enough to indicate a score, could be a simple microphone.
Or for training purposes just be honest.

This would be closer to electronic targets than turning targets, I've never shot on lights.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:16 am
Posts: 153
Location: Central Texas
Late shots aren't a big deal. They're going to be on the last target you shot at. If you're over time on the shot timer, then it just gets dropped off the last target. if you're shooting two series and scoring, then drop the highest value off the last target you shot. If you want to shoot the whole match and score, still the same concept, just potentially a bigger penalty for that late shot.

The modern WC/OG version of rapid fire has nothing to do with turning targets and instead is all about electronic scoring. It's almost like a tech demo for how fast and accurate the scoring system can spit out numbers ("look folks, it even works on 5 different targets at once!"). At the club level you can either try to emulate the speed of scoring and not mess with the turning target part (basically with the ISSF and IOC decided to do), or you can focus on the turning target part. As shown there are some clever mechanical hacks to speed up scoring (I love just bringing the entire target array to the shooter), but that's probably not any cheaper then having a true turning array.

Honestly what comes to mind is something like a scrolling target system. Basically have the targets on a roll that just feeds L/R or R/L (basically scrolling sideways across the holder). The shooter fires their string, the system scrolls enough of the target roll to get 5 fresh targets. The only thing the scorer/official needs to note is the last target shot, and if it was overtime. If it is, just don't count it. It honestly wouldn't be too hard to build if someone would sell just the the uncut roll of targets. Pretty much just a frame with a powered feed and take up roller, and a set of supports to keep the targets flat. At the end of the event, just tear off the shooters targets and score them. No need to stop between series.

Just brain storming,

-Jenrick


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:02 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:10 pm
Posts: 51
Rapid fire is so much fun..but i have always objected to the huge target size...especially since you are going for the deep hits anyways. Falling plates, of smaller diameter sure would be fun to watch, easy to reset, and easy for observers to understand! Kinda like biathlon.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:38 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 27
Location: Canada
As mentioned earlier, there's a difference between the minimal training needs and competition. Good luck trying to change ISSF rules! Funding for competitions and recognition requires that they comply with those rules. However, training is another affair. Trying to comply with ISSF rules during training is hopeless for those of us who must train in facilities (shooting clubs) with ZERO interest in maintaining ISSF-compliant target systems for RF. Airgun is another story because they don't need the same level of shooting range.
For my own training I use the smartphone app 25m Pistol Timer, as well as Kamerton system (made in Russia and rather a pain to obtain). Dry firing at 1-8 yards on reduced targets, practice with sound and lights. Timing and rhythm are paramount. I use a musical-intuitive technique to gauge the rhythm: I know when I am not on time.
Live fire: I use a fold-out five-target set, reduced to hang at 20 yards. Paper patching when I finish. I used to record all live-fire shooting on my smartphone and use a stopwatch to check my timing and rhythm afterwards. Mostly to confirm what I already knew about how the shooting went.
Competitions in Quebec (5 per year) are all on 25 m paper targets and we patch after every two series. Matches are very slow but the number of serious and competent shooters could be counted on the fingers of a hand, and our numbers are not exactly increasing by leaps and bounds. "Competent" could be defined as "no frame hits in a match".


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