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A forum to talk about Olympic style shooting, rifle or pistol, 10 meters to 50 meters, and whatever is in between. Hosted by Pilkguns.com
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:59 am
Posts: 511
Need some advice here...I've been having serious score slippage over the last two years. Two seasons ago, I was shooting 535s. Last season, 525s...this season, 510 has been a fight. Very disheartening. I'm 53, so extreme age isn't the issue. Shooting glasses are up to date.

This season in particular, I've had problems with "spraying"...a reasonably circular 8-ring sized group. Flyers in the 7 ring...and this season, worse.

I'm about to dump the FWB P44 I've shot the last two seasons in favor of the Steyr LP10. Right now, I've got the sights set up for the max possible sight radius. I learned to shoot on a Remington 1858 revolver with an 8-inch barrel, a long sight radius doesn't trouble me. Should I shorten the sight radius on the Steyr? TIA


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:13 pm
Posts: 138
Location: Dallas, Texas
Maybe if you're thinking about a shorter sight radius, you should give it a try. I find that a heavier trigger with a little roll makes it easier to keep sight alignment because there is always pressure on the trigger and I can "aim with the trigger" like Brian Zins would say. On the AP, with a crisp break, it's harder for me, so a shorter radius is helpful. Also, consider an iris. I'm 57 and I cannot see the front sight consistently even with a brand-new shooting lens. I started using an iris closed down to about 4 or 5 mm and the front sight is finally clear through the entire shot process.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:07 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:15 pm
Posts: 64
Mike M. wrote:

I'm about to dump the FWB P44 I've shot the last two seasons in favor of the Steyr LP10.

The absorber og the FWB P44 is erratic. My advice: dump the FWB P44. I got rid of mine, fast.
Mike M. wrote:
This season in particular, I've had problems with "spraying"...a reasonably circular 8-ring sized group. Flyers in the 7 ring...and this season, worse.

An erratic absorber could be part of the problem.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:30 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:48 am
Posts: 1142
Location: New Zealand
northpaw wrote:
An erratic absorber could be part of the problem.


There is no way an erratic absorber would cause shots to go in the 7-8 ring.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:51 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:48 am
Posts: 439
Location: Aotearoa/NZ
One of the leading causes of angular error in Air Pistol is poor trigger control.

A leading cause of trigger poor trigger control is a false sense of urgency created by inability and/or doubt in holding ability; that is trying to pick a shot.

You could try reduce the sight radius to make your hold appear better, and work on dryfiring some. Try let the shot happen by smoothly building trigger pressure.

A drill to consider x 20 reps

* One shot live,
* One high quality dry fire at the back of a card at 10m,
* One high quality shot at the back of a card (no target, high performance of this task results generally in a nice vertical string of shots with no horizontal deflection)

Remember me when you get to the top.

Honestly if your trigger is good and your hold is okay given enough practice (and hard work) you will find it is actually pretty easy to hold the 9 ring most of the time.

Warren Potter wrote a few nice articles on this subject:
http://www.pilkguns.com/intwp.shtml - About Warren
http://www.pilkguns.com/c4.shtml - Sight Watching
http://www.pilkguns.com/c3.shtml - Dryfire Training
http://www.pilkguns.com/c5.shtml - Don't Bee A Cheeken!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:27 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:40 pm
Posts: 252
things like the thickness of the front sight and how well you can see it are much more important. With my shooting glasses, I can see the front sight of a Morini air pistol much better because it's like a whole inch away from my eye than a Steyr. Because of that, the front sight of Steyr is always blurry. Using a lense that moves the focus even close doesn't work for me, then both sights are blurry

In the end, it doesn't matter much.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:30 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:20 pm
Posts: 4719
Location: Scottsdale AZ
I was going to wait until I had more experience to post this, but since you ask:

Forget a new gun; it's not your problem.

I just acquired another AP and it needed some work to fit me (grips, trigger), so out of curiosity I decided to try moving the front sight all the way back (about 2") while I was at it. After all, Pilk won't even sell you a long barrel LP10.

First thing you'll notice is that you have to widen the rear sight notch. Next is that the front sight will appear larger. In my mind, this is a good thing since I think most front sights are too narrow. You want to have the front sight appear as wide as the bull (when your focus is on the sight).

The shorter sight radius will give you a little more confidence in your hold so you can concentrate more on your trigger squeeze, which I consider to be the more important element.

So far, I've been able to shoot some small groups, but I'm waiting for more long-term use before making a decision about the desirability of this mod.

Good luck with your efforts, but it sounds to me that you're trying to "ambush" to bull as it wanders by, to the detriment of your trigger squeeze.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:34 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:13 pm
Posts: 83
I agree with SamEEE. Trigger error is leading cause for bad shots. The shorter sight radius might help some, but the long barrel isn't forgiving either way. Bad trigger squeeze leads to lateral/radial acceleration of the muzzle. With longer barrel it will make shot worse. I recommend lots of dry firing. You should work on each fundamental seperately and spend majority of the time working on trigger squeeze. Your sights will tell you if you are doing it right. Then when you train live fire work on calling your shots.
Jon


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:56 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:04 pm
Posts: 1331
Location: Massachusetts
Jon Eulette wrote:
I agree with SamEEE. Trigger error is leading cause for bad shots. The shorter sight radius might help some, but the long barrel isn't forgiving either way. Bad trigger squeeze leads to lateral/radial acceleration of the muzzle. With longer barrel it will make shot worse. I recommend lots of dry firing. You should work on each fundamental seperately and spend majority of the time working on trigger squeeze. Your sights will tell you if you are doing it right. Then when you train live fire work on calling your shots.
Jon

Depending on the pistol, the longer sight radius/barrel may come with an increased moment of inertia, which will tend to counteract the disturbances from trigger errors or natural wobble. Until you can't hold it steady for the length of a match, mass (and it's proper placement) is your friend.

Long or short sight radius is mostly a psychological thing, The shorter it is, the less it looks like it's wobbling. If you get used to the wobble, a longer sight radius allows more precise alignment. On some pistols, the sight radius is adjustable to some extent, independent of the weight distribution. Beginners tend to screw up their triggering with a long sight radius because they panic a bit at all the apparent motion & start snatching at the trigger as it goes by the aiming point.

For the most part, you would be better off concentrating on the fundamentals & dry firing a lot, than worrying about tweaking every adjustment on your pistol in search of a few points. If you have access to an electronic trainer, you can see how big your wobble is. It's generally less than people think.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:57 pm
Posts: 521
Location: California
If you have an adjustable rear sight, open up/widen the notch.
That will give you a similar effect to pulling the front sight in, more white space on both sides of the front sight.

But, as Ricardo mentioned, can you see the front sight SHARP?
I had to get a pair of glasses made, because with my normal glasses, I could not get a SHARP focus on the front sight, so my eye was constantly trying to focus on the target instead of the front sight. New glasses (using Warren Potters advice in his article) and now I CAN focus on the front sight. And yes, my eye doc let me bring my AP into her office for a private lunch hour appointment, to check the RX with my AP and a target at about 10m. In fact that is the primary reason I use her.

As Sam mentioned, also do a LOT of dry fire, and pay attention to your trigger finger.
I was having trouble with my trigger finger, so I stopped shooting live for two months, and just CONCENTRATED on dry firing.
1 - Trigger. First I dry fired at a blank piece of paper or the blank wall, so there was no distraction from my trigger finger. Back to basics and technique. I discovered that I was pushing the trigger and thus the pistol to the left, which was masked during live fire. Ah ha !!! Once I found the problem I could work on it. When I felt comfortable that with my finger was working properly STRAIGHT BACK, then to step 2.
2 - Sight picture. I put up a target. I started the pull, then CONCENTRATED 100% on holding the sight picture and NOT thinking about my trigger finger. And I finally got the "surprise" release, and was able to repeat it. I learned that if I thought about my trigger finger, I lost concentration of the sight picture.

It was amazing to me what removing the report of the AP and the pellet hole on the target did to helping me learn. And that was when I really understood the value of dry fire.

I also second GW's recommendation to try to find someone with an electronic trainer, or bite the bullet and buy one for yourself. I did, instead of upgrading my AP, and IMHO it was well worth it. I don't use it for score/practice shooting, but instead to see what my hold was doing in the 8 seconds before and the 2 seconds after the hammer falls. It is amazing what it will show you doing vs. what you "think" you are doing. You can't fix a problem, if you don't know the problem exists.


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