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 Post subject: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:32 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:07 am
Posts: 230
Location: Mineola, TX
I would like to start a Rapid Fire Pistol program at my local gun club. There are several shooters interested and I just need to work out the details of exactly how to run the match. I intend to build a carrier to hold the paper targets at the required height and spacing at 25 meters. Then use a shot timer to verify all shots are made in the specified time.

My question is, what exactly is the format for a 60 shot rapid fire pistol match? ISSF videos show the finals, but not the other 10 second and 8 second series shot on paper.
Do we shoot 2 strings of 5 shots in 10 seconds then score? Ect, ect....


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:53 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:04 am
Posts: 354
Location: Montreal, Qu├ębec, Canada
ghillieman wrote:
I would like to start a Rapid Fire Pistol program at my local gun club. There are several shooters interested and I just need to work out the details of exactly how to run the match. I intend to build a carrier to hold the paper targets at the required height and spacing at 25 meters. Then use a shot timer to verify all shots are made in the specified time.

My question is, what exactly is the format for a 60 shot rapid fire pistol match? ISSF videos show the finals, but not the other 10 second and 8 second series shot on paper.
Do we shoot 2 strings of 5 shots in 10 seconds then score? Ect, ect....


No 10 second. 8, 6, or 4 second.
I've only got so far as to read the rules. So I can't be of much more help than providing a link:
http://www.issf-sports.org/getfile.aspx ... n_2016.pdf

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:32 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
Since you will have neither a turning target system nor an electronic target set, you are back to the way it was in smaller clubs back in the early 1970s. However the timings are done as two - 8 second strings, two - 6 seconds, two - 4 seconds. In a formal match you need to score and parch after each string - plan on a very long day! In informal matches you can get away with scoring after two strings I.e. After the 8 s, after the 6 s, after the - 4 s. Malfunctions in either case are shot as the series after the two strings and the lowest scores on each target are recorded. Then, after thirty rounds of the set the competitors switch bays (assuming you set up in pairs) and do the whole routine over again.

For the shooters, the arm must be stationary at 45 degrees down, usually line up to point between first and second target, first shot should be off at two seconds in the 8 and 6 and down to 1.5 in the 4, rotate from the ankles or no higher than hips. If you just move the arm, sight picture will change and the shots drift away from centre.

RO has to be sharp in listening for and recording late shots, which are disallowed. If you need more look for a 70s issue rule book, it will be UIT rather than ISSF.

Good luck. Dr Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:29 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
Posts: 5230
Location: Ruislip, UK
Dr. Jim wrote:
Malfunctions in either case are shot as the series after the two strings and the lowest scores on each target are recorded.

Not necessarily true.

If one of the competitors has a malfunction on his first series then his malfunction series is shot together with the second series for the other shooter(s). He will then have an additional series at the end to shoot his second series.

It might not sound like a big difference but it can make a big difference when calculating the score.

Only 1 malfunction, allowable or non-allowable, is allowed in each 30 shot half of the match. After that, you only score the shots that you fired.

Also, for an allowable malfunction series you REPEAT the 5 shot series, unless the allowable malfunction was in the sighting series when you COMPLETE the series.

For non-allowable malfunctions you don't get a re-shoot, you just score what you shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:41 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:32 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
Thanks for the clarification David. However, the way I described it was how we actually did it in Western Canada back in the early 1970s. We were just a little lax in being punctilious about the rule book before the commonwealth Games came along and we cleaned up our act.

Cheers. Dr Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:27 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:13 pm
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia
Take a look at http://www.nrc-pa.com/rapidfirepistol_paper.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:44 pm
Posts: 483
Dr. Jim wrote:
Since you will have neither a turning target system nor an electronic target set, you are back to the way it was in smaller clubs back in the early 1970s. However the timings are done as two - 8 second strings, two - 6 seconds, two - 4 seconds. In a formal match you need to score and parch after each string - plan on a very long day! In informal matches you can get away with scoring after two strings I.e. After the 8 s, after the 6 s, after the - 4 s. Malfunctions in either case are shot as the series after the two strings and the lowest scores on each target are recorded. Then, after thirty rounds of the set the competitors switch bays (assuming you set up in pairs) and do the whole routine over again.

For the shooters, the arm must be stationary at 45 degrees down, usually line up to point between first and second target, first shot should be off at two seconds in the 8 and 6 and down to 1.5 in the 4, rotate from the ankles or no higher than hips. If you just move the arm, sight picture will change and the shots drift away from centre.

RO has to be sharp in listening for and recording late shots, which are disallowed. If you need more look for a 70s issue rule book, it will be UIT rather than ISSF.

Good luck. Dr Jim

For informal, I'd just score after finishing all six strings. Somehow, I doubt many folks are going to have that hard a time scoring six holes per target. It'll save you a *ton* of time, targets, and patches.
No need to listen for a late shot. If you're running one shooter at a time, a decent shot timer should pick up any extra shots and tell you whether the shooter is late or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:12 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:30 pm
Posts: 251
Location: New Zealand
When we shoot informal Rapid Fire at our club, to be honest we quite often do 60 shot scoring (+ 5 sighters). Excluding the sighters, this equals 12 holes per target...well there would be 12 apart from the misses and with inexperienced shooters, come the four-second strings, there will be plenty! We don't bother with 60 seconds to load (yawn) but allow the shooter to call "Ready!" once they are loaded. One problem with scoring like this is dealing with allowable malfunctions when combined with misses. The answer is to allow zero malfunctions! If a shooter's gun has one; tough. To be honest, this isn't too much of a problem with most current .22 LR semi-auto pistols being far more reliable than the old pre-2005 .22 short Rapid Fire pistols ever were. As suggested, we also used a PACT timer during a period when our turning targets were out of action. Just remember to programme in a seven second delay to the start (i.e. the R.O calls "Attention!" and pushes the start button and seven seconds later the first beep indicates the start of the string).

Running a match like this violates multiple ISSF rules, but it achieves two of the most important things when trying to encourage an interest in Rapid Fire at a club; it's fast and it's fun. It also means that you can get through everyone who wants to shoot the match very quickly which is vital if you want to maintain enthusiasm. Sticking to the proper rules without the use of electronic targets means a single detail (72 seconds of shooting time) can take over an hour to shoot and if you have multiple people wanting to shoot the match, it's a pretty quick way of killing the vibe. Worry about doing things "properly" if it becomes popular and members want to pursue the discipline seriously.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:48 am
Posts: 1181
Location: New Zealand
Fortitudo Dei wrote:
... The answer is to allow zero malfunctions! ...


To be honest, I'm surprised that the ISSF hasn't already moved in this direction. In most sport, when you equipment fails, that's just bad luck (or bad preparation).


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:58 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:44 pm
Posts: 483
Fortitudo Dei wrote:
When we shoot informal Rapid Fire at our club, to be honest we quite often do 60 shot scoring (+ 5 sighters). Excluding the sighters, this equals 12 holes per target...well there would be 12 apart from the misses and with inexperienced shooters, come the four-second strings, there will be plenty! We don't bother with 60 seconds to load (yawn) but allow the shooter to call "Ready!" once they are loaded. One problem with scoring like this is dealing with allowable malfunctions when combined with misses. The answer is to allow zero malfunctions! If a shooter's gun has one; tough. To be honest, this isn't too much of a problem with most current .22 LR semi-auto pistols being far more reliable than the old pre-2005 .22 short Rapid Fire pistols ever were. As suggested, we also used a PACT timer during a period when our turning targets were out of action. Just remember to programme in a seven second delay to the start (i.e. the R.O calls "Attention!" and pushes the start button and seven seconds later the first beep indicates the start of the string).

Running a match like this violates multiple ISSF rules, but it achieves two of the most important things when trying to encourage an interest in Rapid Fire at a club; it's fast and it's fun. It also means that you can get through everyone who wants to shoot the match very quickly which is vital if you want to maintain enthusiasm. Sticking to the proper rules without the use of electronic targets means a single detail (72 seconds of shooting time) can take over an hour to shoot and if you have multiple people wanting to shoot the match, it's a pretty quick way of killing the vibe. Worry about doing things "properly" if it becomes popular and members want to pursue the discipline seriously.

And *THAT'S* the way to run a club match and increase participation in Rapid Fire at the local level!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:17 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:17 pm
Posts: 29
Years ago, when rapid fire pistols are .22 short and targets are paper, I occasionally help run the match at my club, previous posters has already laid out how it should be run, we usually patch and score after a 10 shots string, as we score we also use a 2 sided colour disc, red and white, mounted on a rod, to indicate the location of the shots to the shooters, red side for 10s, white side for the rest.

The procedure will be as follow, after a 10 shots string, the RO check the pistols are safe, scorer go down range, place the disc on the shot hole and call out the score of each target, "target 1. 9, 8, target 2. 10, 9"....etc, it would be nice have another helper to patch after scorer called out the score to speed things up a bit. RO will record the scores on the master score sheet, shooters will also write down his scores on his own score sheet.

The reason for this exercise is for the shooters to record the location of his shots on the score sheet, in case he need to adjust the sight, BTW I'm using "he" since back in those day I don't ever remember meeting any female rapid fire pistol shooter.

Hope this help and wish the OP have a successful match.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:19 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:09 am
Posts: 50
Location: Norway
You could also try Military Rapid Fire. It basically follows the Standard Pistol rules, but you shoot at Rapid Fire target, and the series are 10, 8 and 6 seconds. This is an event that is shot in CISM competitions, where male shooters use a Centrefire Pistol and female shooters use a Standard Pistol.

We also shoot this event in civilian competitions in Norway, but as two separate events; smallbore and centrefire. That way you can bring two guns and shoot two competitions the same day. It's fun and it takes less time than Olympic Rapid Fire.

The best shooters achieve scores from 580 to 595 points.

Here's a clip from Thun in Switzerland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IkxGj37gHs


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:53 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:13 pm
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia
j-team wrote:
Fortitudo Dei wrote:
... The answer is to allow zero malfunctions! ...


To be honest, I'm surprised that the ISSF hasn't already moved in this direction. In most sport, when you equipment fails, that's just bad luck (or bad preparation).

Now convince the ammunition manufacturers.

I know there are probably thousands of shooters out there that claim they have fired x-thousand rounds through their pistol without a malfunction - I don't see a lot of malfunctions at World Cups/Olympics/Commonwealth Games, but they do happen.

The BIG scream would come from the 50m rifle shooters after the first dud round at a World Cup. In 50m rifle a dud round does not seem obvious as the shooter simply replaces the round; for 25m pistol it s obvious.

No malfunctions has be floated before, but common sense has prevailed (so far).


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:00 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:48 am
Posts: 1181
Location: New Zealand
Spencer wrote:

The BIG scream would come from the 50m rifle shooters after the first dud round at a World Cup.


Rifle shooters will always find something to moan about!


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:04 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:48 am
Posts: 1181
Location: New Zealand
Spencer wrote:

I know there are probably thousands of shooters out there that claim they have fired x-thousand rounds through their pistol without a malfunction - I don't see a lot of malfunctions at World Cups/Olympics/Commonwealth Games, but they do happen.


Yup, just like tyres bursting in motorsport or racket strings breaking in tennis etc. Only ISSF shooting allows a re-do. In other sports (including almost all other shooting sports) it's stiff cheese!


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:30 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:30 pm
Posts: 251
Location: New Zealand
Rune Kanstad wrote:
Here's a clip from Thun in Switzerland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IkxGj37gHs


That target rig is brilliant!


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:46 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:55 pm
Posts: 932
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
j-team wrote:
Spencer wrote:

The BIG scream would come from the 50m rifle shooters after the first dud round at a World Cup.


Rifle shooters will always find something to moan about!

BIG +1!!!! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:16 am
Posts: 153
Location: Central Texas
If you have a member with minimal electrical/electronics skill you can easily wire up a shot timer to a set of green and red lights to signal just like an "official" match. Basically crack open the timer and wire from the buzzer to a pair of relays at the lights, one defaults on (the red for no shoot), the other off(green for shoot), the current from the timer will trip them and cycle the timing lights correctly. If you want to get really fancy with it, a micro-controller (arduino's are cheap and easy for the novice)based control box could be rigged up that would allow for any timing desired.

Beyond that, the matches we have informally run at work (just off a shooting timer, the light are something I keep meaning to build in my spare time), we just walk down and score our own targets after each pair of strings (so after both 8 second strings), paste them and walk back. Takes maybe 20 mins to run the whole match, if you go off when the shooter feels ready rather then any mandated waiting times.

-Jenrick


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:57 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:17 pm
Posts: 29
    j-team wrote:
    Spencer wrote:

    The BIG scream would come from the 50m rifle shooters after the first dud round at a World Cup.


    Rifle shooters will always find something to moan about!


Why would a rifle shooter scream when him/her had a dud round at any match? just cycle the bolt and load a fresh round, as the saying goes, "be careful what you wish for, you may get it." If the rule changed to no malfunctions are allowed, you can loose a match due to a single dud round and FTF or FTE, do you really want that?


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 Post subject: Re: Rapid Fire Pistol
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:57 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:26 am
Posts: 693
Location: Australia
Here we shoot two series before scoring, so if a shooter has a malfunction they get the worst 2 shots out of 3.

We actually has a good turnout for rapid at our last club shoot, 6 shooters.
Maybe the realisation that rapid might well be the last cartridge pistol event at the Olympic and Commonwealth Games might have triggered it.

Here we are dependent on there being an Olympic or Commonwealth Games event, or world championship to train for to have a reason for owning a class of pistol. Although 'world championship' has been removed from the recent National Firearms agreement, if we don't get it put back in we'll be in trouble.
Its either a sneaky move or oversight, since Western Action and Metallic Silhouette are still in there.
Anyone in Australia needs to start working on this pronto.


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