TargetTalk

A forum to talk about Olympic style shooting, rifle or pistol, 10 meters to 50 meters, and whatever is in between. Hosted by Pilkguns.com
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Location: Montreal, Canada
When I bought my Steyr EVO-10 pistol I was told very strongly by the dealer that I should shoot only "Pistol" pellets in it and only "Rifle" pellets in my rifle.

My question is does it really make any noticeable difference? (I guess I should just try it.) But is there a general consensus about this?

My pistol pellets are 7.33 gr and my rifle ones are 8.18 gr.

I'd like to buy a big batch (10,000) of ONE pellet for training that I could use in either. Does it really make a difference?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:25 pm 
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always use heavy pellets, every competitor in ISSF finals uses heavy pellets (they either mention it in interviews, RWS mentioned that on their website that they use the rifle pellets in pistols, or you can sometimes see the can they're using, it's ways the heavy pellets).
The reason why they use the heavy version is because it gives you tighter groups.

For training, use whatever you think is cheapest. RWS are probably the most popular, followed by JSB, Quin Yung, H&N.

Light pellets are for older guns, that use spring, they're not as powerful as the new pcp.

There are a bunch of tests you can find online, I have never seen a light pellet perform well, and by well I mean under 6mm. You can get one hole with light pellets, but you are more likely to find heavy pellets peforming better. It's well enough for training, or if you don't shoot more 10s than 9s yet.
http://10point9.ie/2012/02/26/new-pellets/

Here's a German test, RWS R10 light pellets didn't perform well in none of the six guns they tested. R10 heavy did better in all of the guns. Same with JSB pellets, the heavy pellets performed better than light pellets in all of the six guns.

To give you an idea how bad and how good pellets get look at this. The worst you can get is about twice the size of a pellet, which is acceptable for training. So, don't be scared if it's cheap. Don't bother with expensive if you can't hold the 10 ring.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:04 pm 
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Location: Montreal, Canada
Hundert! Thank you for the really terrific reply. Good stuff!

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:48 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:51 am
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Location: czech republic
"always use heavy pellets, every competitor in ISSF finals uses heavy pellets"
You're probably a regular finalist in the ISSF Pistol World Cups? This is a very simplistic view. Your hand is not a vice. This is especially true in the competition. Training = use more massive pelets. Competition = the lighter. Try and try it. Wasting time. First, try a light pellet from your hand. But the minimum is 80 shots, more will be better and then compare.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:03 am 
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Location: Scottsdale AZ
"The reason why they use the heavy version is because it gives you tighter groups."

Oh, bullshit! In his "exhaustive test research" he never looked at my multiple test reports on TT. They are the reason so many have switched to RWS Basic Diabolo on TT.

Basically, there is NO difference in accuracy between heavy and light, head size, or brand. ONLY the lot number of various pellets, determined by actual test with YOUR gun, is of any importance.

Don't believe me? Ask the guy who makes pellets.....Pilkington.

BTW Using three pistols and two lots of JSB light pellets, they outperformed every other pellet every time, but I'd still want to test again (but I don't waste my time with that stuff anymore, I just use the RWS Basic for everything.)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:15 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:11 am
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Location: Haymarket, VA
Rover,

Just ordered my first AP(p44) and since my skill level is 0.... I don't have a need to test pellets. When ever it does come time do you use any kind of fixture ?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:40 am 
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Unless you are an elite olympic shooter (575+ avg.), the circular error of probability in the offhand olympic AP hold is far greater than the subtle differences in groups between machine-rested wadcutter pellet tests.

In the old days with non-vented barrels, a heavier pellet in a PCP pistol would develop more pressure within a 12" barrel, and hence, marginally more velocity. But along with that came more vibration in the pistol, etc. With today's vented barrels (Steyrs in particular, don't know about others), all the velocity you will have is developed in the first 4-3/4" of barrel. So pellet weight is a moot issue, IMO.


Last edited by DFWdude on Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:43 am 
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Question for people on this thread (and I recognize that there are varying experience levels): it seems clear that air rifle pellets have at least some preference among higher level shooters. Why do the pellet manufacturers produce match pistol tins then? They seem to sell enough to stay in their catalogue.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:52 am 
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Chia wrote:
Question for people on this thread (and I recognize that there are varying experience levels): it seems clear that air rifle pellets have at least some preference among higher level shooters. Why do the pellet manufacturers produce match pistol tins then? They seem to sell enough to stay in their catalogue.
I don't know this for sure, but imagine that air rifle and pistol development around the world relies on the least common denominator. Team coaches buy in bulk quantities, and train shooters from early ages in shooting this pellet over that, etc. So, perhaps it's a combination of training habits through the years that convinces a shooter to use a certain pellet, purchased by the millions in just one weight range for use in both rifle and pistol. Just a guess.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:48 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:51 am
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Location: czech republic
Hi Rover
the heavy version of pellets give the tighter groups from a vice only /fixed gun/. There is a big difference between a pistol shot and a rifle shot in the stability & movement during the real shot time. (the rifle X is 0,5 mm only versus the pistol X is 11,5 mm)
BTW Basic RWS are lightweight pellets in fact. (0,45 - 0,46 gram only)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:02 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:20 pm
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Location: Scottsdale AZ
Christopher Miceli wrote:
Rover,

Just ordered my first AP(p44) and since my skill level is 0.... I don't have a need to test pellets. When ever it does come time do you use any kind of fixture ?


Absolutely! I use a heavy vise, usually clamped on the trigger guard, and 25 or 30 shot groups. I measure the groups with a Mitutoyo dial caliper with strong closeup glasses using top of the line targets so that a clean hole is cut.

I can safely recommend RWS Basic Diabolo pellets for you since they performed so well in my tests and are the cheapest decent pellet I know of.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:06 pm 
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Location: Scottsdale AZ
pbrejsa wrote:
Hi Rover
the heavy version of pellets give the tighter groups from a vice only /fixed gun/. There is a big difference between a pistol shot and a rifle shot in the stability & movement during the real shot time. (the rifle X is 0,5 mm only versus the pistol X is 11,5 mm)
BTW Basic RWS are lightweight pellets in fact. (0,45 - 0,46 gram only)


I know exactly what the RWS Basic pellets weigh.....I check them on a reloading powder scale. AND we are talking about PISTOL here.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:13 pm 
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Any top brand pellet should perform adequately in your air pistol, no matter if it is a light or heavy weight one. If you do some pellet testing you will verify significant differences in the groups, but even the largest will be probably too small to make a difference when you add up your arc of movement in pistol shooting.

I read some wise words here about pellet testing: that is something that you should care about when you make at least as many 10s as half of your shots. Before that you are probably not able to take profit of a perfect match of pellet and barrel.

Pistol pellets are paramount for low power pistols and some spring powered rifles. My FWB 65 stops cutting nice round holes if fed with rifle weight pellets. I read similar comments from some SSP owners - the FAS seems to suffer from the same simptoms.

I use RWS and H&N pistol pellets on 10 m matches with springers (that is a popular modality here in Brazil.) In the opposite, in my C20 i only use the heavier ones. No concern about group sizes, just happen to have around good supply of old Meisterkugelns rifle weight. These happen to have showed the worst groups when I did some tests with rifles.

The pistol can outshoot me any day no matter what it is fed with. In the opposite, the spring rifles are rather pick regarding ammunition and some testing showed a huge diffeence.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:51 pm 
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If you google for pellet tests (google images, google for "jsb test" "RWS pellet test" etc etc "air gun pellet test") you will find many many tests from private people and you'll see that heavy perform better, not always, but almost always. Here for example you can see RWS R10 light pellets performing well. There is also a picture of one batch of Qiang Yuan making the smallest group and other batches of Qiang Yuan of basically the same pellets but different production batches with different group sizes. You'd still need to test your gun for the right pellets.

I personally shoot with JSB middle weight and Meisterkugeln. The prices seem to have gone up though lately.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:48 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:20 pm
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Location: Scottsdale AZ
If you had done a search you would have found the answer to all your questions here:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52250&hilit=pellets


Last edited by Rover on Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:48 am
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Location: Aotearoa/NZ
Probably not worth worrying about inherent accuracy of air pistol unless you're going to miss out on X count.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:34 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:38 pm
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Anyone tested H&N Excite Econ yet? It's Canadian $5 a can of 500 so it's like US$4 which is way cheaper than even RWS basic... I am going to order a few cans to try.

- M


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:26 pm 
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Location: Scottsdale AZ
Test and report. Inquiring minds want to know.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:51 am
Posts: 57
Location: czech republic
to mhkhung
the price difference is minimal, waste money for H&N Econ, the RWS Basic are clearly much better. It was tested Steyrs LP2 and LP2 Compact, LP10, CM162, Walther LP300.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:06 am
Posts: 203
Location: Montreal, Canada
I just picked up a sleeve of H&N Excite pellets this morning to try, with my NEW Steyr EVO-10 regular length. (I sold my Compact EVO-10 a couple of days ago.)

First impression of the Excite... They're dirty and they feel rough. Not at all like JSB Match Diabolo or H&N Finale Match Pistol.

Still sighting in the new pistol so the jury's still out regarding accuracy of these pellets, but the price sure is right for training pellets.

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CZ200S "Green" .177
Feinwerkbau 800 Evolution Top
AA S400 MPR FT .177
Steyr EVO 10
Weihrauch HW50S Stainless .177, HW50S .22


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