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 Post subject: Left Right Spread Issue
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:03 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:15 pm
Posts: 81
I've finally started hitting the black consistently with my Izzy, and the group is sufficiently tight from top to bottom, but I am getting a lot of spread to the left and right. Or I suppose the spread could all be left or all be right, I don't know for sure. But the way I have it sighted in, it's grouping in a horizontal line from one seven ring to the other. Any idea what it could be?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:55 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:04 pm
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Location: Massachusetts
It's most likely variations in grip pressure, especially sideways from the thumb & finger tips. You may also be losing focus on your sights and the front sight is drifting around, but that would also usually produce some vertical error as well.

The most consistent pressure you can apply is zero. RELAX your finger tips & thumb. Many shooters subconsciously tighten up their finger tips when they squeeze the trigger, which will push the shots to the left (for a right handed shooter). The other problem is that when you move your forefinger to the rear, you've spent your whole life moving your thumb towards it to grab things. That will push the pistol to the right. You have to ditch that habit.

Try dry firing so you can really see what is going on.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:05 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:15 pm
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Gwhite wrote:
It's most likely variations in grip pressure, especially sideways from the thumb & finger tips. You may also be losing focus on your sights and the front sight is drifting around, but that would also usually produce some vertical error as well.

The most consistent pressure you can apply is zero. RELAX your finger tips & thumb. Many shooters subconsciously tighten up their finger tips when they squeeze the trigger, which will push the shots to the left (for a right handed shooter). The other problem is that when you move your forefinger to the rear, you've spent your whole life moving your thumb towards it to grab things. That will push the pistol to the right. You have to ditch that habit.

Try dry firing so you can really see what is going on.


That's interesting. The two things I was focusing on that yielded recent improvement were using grip pressure only on the front and rear of the grip, and pulling the front sight through the rear sight. It seemed like pulling the front sight through the rear sight was the really big thing, but maybe I started focusing on it to the exclusion of grip pressure. I'll experiment more and report back.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:53 am
Posts: 270
Definitely agree with Gwhite. Fair warning, I'm not too much farther along, but I have one other suggestion.

Trigger control. If you're not sure why shots are landing in certain places, it's a definite possibility. To test, put a white sheet on the wall and point the gun at it. Doesn't matter where, but know on the paper where it is. Slowly depress the trigger and see if the gun moves. And if it moves, keep practicing that way until you get a loose, repeatable and gradual trigger release.

Repeat ad nauseum (I'm still doing it as part of my warmups).


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:54 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:15 pm
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Chia wrote:
Definitely agree with Gwhite. Fair warning, I'm not too much farther along, but I have one other suggestion.

Trigger control. If you're not sure why shots are landing in certain places, it's a definite possibility. To test, put a white sheet on the wall and point the gun at it. Doesn't matter where, but know on the paper where it is. Slowly depress the trigger and see if the gun moves. And if it moves, keep practicing that way until you get a loose, repeatable and gradual trigger release.

Repeat ad nauseum (I'm still doing it as part of my warmups).


My trigger pull is definitely more rapid than I would like. I just feel rushed because I can keep the sight picture in the area long enough for a gradual enough trigger pull to allow for the shot to be a surprise. It's not like I'm shooting prone rifle, though.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:17 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:04 pm
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Location: Massachusetts
One mistake a lot of people make is to only start their final squeeze AFTER the pistol has settled. By the time it eventually goes off, you either rush it, or you start wobbling & lose focus (and then rush it...). You need to start applying pressure as you are coming into your hold so the shot breaks as soon as possible after you have settled.

When working on learning this, if you don't occasionally have a shot that goes off before you've settled, you aren't trying hard enough.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:31 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:53 am
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Okay no new advice from me but since I'm a word guy, I'd like to point out a contrast. I use the terms "slowly depress" and "trigger release." GWhite uses the terms "shot break" and "final squeeze." You use the term "trigger pull." Personally, I'm a fan of the term shot break, because that emphasizes the whole point of trigger control: an unconscious break created by slowly increasing consciously applied pressure. There should be no pulling that can move your muzzle away from the target at the last second.

If you get the opportunity, I recommend trying an electronic trainer such as SCATT. It is amazing how much movement there can be in the last 0.2 seconds before the shot is fired that you may be completely unaware of. For me, it was over two score rings! I've gradually worked it down to .5 to 1 score ring, but it's something I have to constantly work at.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:55 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:31 pm
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Location: New Hampshire, USA
If it really is left AND right, it could be coming from the wrist. If I hold longer than conditioning permits the first visible sign is an almost perfectly horizontal wobble. It's a good indication I should have cancelled the shot 2 or 3 seconds ago.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:40 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:09 am
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Location: Norway
A shooting buddy of mine had a similar problem, and he was convinced the problem was trigger-related. He had access to a Scatt simulator, and hooked it up. The simulator showed that he was consistently aiming either right or left of centre. So for him, at least, it was a sight picture problem.

So if you have acess to a simulator, give it a try. Sometimes the problem is different from what we think it is.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:30 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:58 am
Posts: 122
Location: Ottawa Ontario Canada
I'm not sure if the Izzy has an adjustable rear sight gap, but I'll just mention that if it does, and the gap is set too wide, left and right variations can become an issue. At a certain point it becomes difficult to judge the centre alignment of the front sight and shots will begin to spread laterally.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:04 pm
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Location: Massachusetts
The IZH has replaceable rear sight blades, each with two notches, one on top & one on the bottom so you can just flip the blade to get a different width. I think a new one comes with two different blades, so you have four width options. They also come with several widths of front sight blades. There should be enough leeway to find one (or more) suitable combinations.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:20 pm
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Location: Scottsdale AZ
EdStevens wrote:
I'm not sure if the Izzy has an adjustable rear sight gap, but I'll just mention that if it does, and the gap is set too wide, left and right variations can become an issue. At a certain point it becomes difficult to judge the centre alignment of the front sight and shots will begin to spread laterally.


Usually, the problem is a too NARROW gap. I rarely see a pistol with a too wide gap. As a matter of fact, I have OPENED many a rear sight notch.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 2:18 pm
Posts: 90
Location: Liverpool England
Gwhite wrote:
One mistake a lot of people make is to only start their final squeeze AFTER the pistol has settled. By the time it eventually goes off, you either rush it, or you start wobbling & lose focus (and then rush it...). You need to start applying pressure as you are coming into your hold so the shot breaks as soon as possible after you have settled.

When working on learning this, if you don't occasionally have a shot that goes off before you've settled, you aren't trying hard enough.


I have to agree with Gwhite on this, I was practicing beginning the squeeze just before I settled into the final hold, but after one too many mishaps into the 6 ring (even during comp's), I gave up but have since noticed my scores have gone down considerably. Back to the drawing board I think, thanks Gwhite.

Tom


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:46 pm
Posts: 20
Location: West Australia
Firstly, a lot of new pistols have sights with very fine light gaps, the problem with this is, while in the process of firing a shot your eyes may not pick up that the light gaps are not equal. Manufacturers often supply pistols with very little light gap so you can adjust it to suit your eyes. A word of warning here, don't take to your sights with a file, get a gunsmith to set your gun up in a mill and take a small amount at a time. If too much is taken out you can't put it back.
Top end pistols like a Steyr LP 10, Morini and many others have sights that you to adjust the light gap one click at a time.
Chia was on the money with his suggestion of aiming at a blank piece of white paper. If you set up a lamp facing the paper it will give you a very sharp and black sight picture.
One of the most important fundamentals to learn is to be able to press the trigger without disturbing perfect sight alignment.
Go through the motion of raising the pistol, get the sights aligned and start pressing in a smooth continuous way with out disturbing the sights. With lots of perfect practice it will develop into a subconscious skill. There is no need to dry fire. Just work on a smooth straight back press, without disturbing the sights.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:17 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:20 pm
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Location: Scottsdale AZ
You needn't be so fussy. I've opened many sights with a small Swiss file with no problem. What I really prefer to do is use a 3/16" chain saw file to make a half moon rear notch. The Russians kicked butt on the world stage for many years with that set up.

It is unlikely you'll do horrible damage to your sight, but if you do, buy another. The old one was worthless anyway.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:20 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:35 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Bedfordshire, England
As a good starting point with the visual relationship between the foresight and rearsight width, accurately measure the width of the foresight and if possible, set the rearsight at the same width to start with.
If necessary, then open up the rear sight, but only slightly.


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