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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:20 pm
Posts: 9
Location: NorCal
Hi, Guys. I know this is a little out there but does anyone have a load recipe for 9 Luger with lead bullets that is accurate enough for match shooting? I'll start from scratch if I have to but any guidance would be appreciated.

First, my competitive days are behind me (way back) so I shoot mainly for fun because I enjoy the competition. And yes I have a Pardini Hp in 32Auto and an S&W M14-5 that I enjoy shooting. I picked up a SIG P 210-5 last summer and would like to see what I can do with it.

I have four other nines so am familiar with loading for them.

thanks for your time, Joe


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:53 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:53 pm
Posts: 300
Hi Joe,
Well, you can't do any better than using a SIG P210-5!!

The challenge with 9mm is the variations in chamber/bore dimensions, and that die makers, etc. plan for the worst case scenario. Redding seems to do best in regards to dies not designed to choke hold your lead bullet to the point that they are virtually resized to .354" or less.
The 1-250mm twist rate of the SIG barrel is an advantage, despite what you'll read elsewhere.
I personally recommend a load using heavier bullets, 145-150 gr. loaded to subsonic velocities.
Powders that will get you there include Bullseye, HS-6, VV n-310, and Vectan 9.5

Let me look deeper into my data.

Jim

PS: I have a SIG Neuhausen 210-6 from the late 60s...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:19 pm 
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Hi Joe,

I just checked my notes, and noticed how far behind I am in this endeavor.
A few months ago, I was in a really bad bike accident. So, I've been slowly putting my life and body back together. I can't believe how many things I've put on hold!

You may want to try Penn Bullets, to see how this all works out for you.
They have an interesting 147 gr bullet, and a light 115 gr bullet that is a proportionally scaled down version of the famous H@G 45 SWC.
http://www.pennbullets.com/9mm/9mm-caliber.html

No doubt you have the 9mm marked recoil spring assembly.
I found that with really light loads you can use the 7,65mm spring assembly intended for the 7.65/30 Luger version of the P210. Recoil-wise, it feels lighter than 38 wadcutters out of a 1911, given the lower bore line and smoother locked breech operation, combined with the superlative handling qualities of the SIG.
At 25 yds, pretty much everything I tried was really good. I haven't tried 50 yds yet.

My plan is to get a custom mold from Accurate Molds, once I get a better handle on things.

Best Regards,
Jim


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:44 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:43 pm
Posts: 1024
The 1 in 10 factory barrel is a problem with cast lead, even the factory made a lead barrel
for the 210-5.
You can use polycoated bullets but expect some leading after 200-300 rounds.
I changed the barrel in both my -5 and -6 to a aftermarket 1 in 18 barrel.
Cast lead bullets are good now to over 1100fps.
My 25m load is 128g roundnose wad cutter with 2.8g bullseye avg.880 fps, pistol fitted
with a reduced slide spring.
Shoots a 1.5" group off the bench, still not as good as my revolver at 1".


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:25 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:15 pm
Posts: 90
Location: Old Europe
I have a SIG 210-5, with an extra factory barrel, barrels are 4" an 5" long, 1:10" twist.
Good groops with cast bullet (my own); the 124 CN(FB) (RCBS mould) and the 147 gns RN(BB) (Magma mould).
For ISSF-style target use i load to power factor (PF) about 100, wich is the softest loads that will cycle my gun reliably with the 9mm recoil spring.
I got good results with cast bullets, and the powders VV 310, VV 320 and, for the heavier cast bullets, WW 231.
From a rest carefully prepared loads would groop within the 10 ring at 25 m (27 yds); 2" or less that is.

Chamber and bore dimensions of the SIG 210 barrels are on the large side; both of my barrels measure close to .357. (!).


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:20 pm
Posts: 9
Location: NorCal
Thanks for the info, guys. I didn't think about slugging my bore. I have nine moulds from Accurate Mold including a 76 gr I designed for my .35 S&W auto(32-076S). I also have the 60 gr swc for the Pardini .32 auto. I looked through their selection to see what might be suitable but didn't know what weight might be best. I use 147s for my IDPA and USPSA nines but heard 115s are most accurate in Bullseye nines. Of course that's with jacketed bullets.

I have a Redding comp die set I thought would be best for accuracy. I still use my RCBS dies from 30 years ago for Action Pistol hoser ammo. I can make any size expander on my lathe (and have) for neck tension adjustments. Most factory expanders are tight even for jacketed bullets.

I've got various powders I can try including Bullseye, Titegroup, 231, N310, WST, HS6 and a dozen more. I've just never tried for accuracy with a nine. If you can hit a pie plate at 10 yds you're good to go for Action Pistol.

I'll have to see if there's a Ransom Rest insert for a 210.

thanks, Joe


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:35 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:03 pm
Posts: 12
Many years ago 7 or 8 of us serious reloaders started working on the best 9mm load.
Using a lead cast 124 or 125 gr bullet with 4.0 grs of Win 231 gave us super accuracy
with velocities, out of 6 different pistols, of around 1,025 fps. I have since then loaded over 15,000+
rounds with at load. NOTE: Win 231 and Hodgdon HP38 work exactly the same. We mostly
used Fed small primers.
Hope this helps
Fred


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:59 pm
Posts: 338
Location: Ottawa, Canada
David M wrote:
The 1 in 10 factory barrel is a problem with cast lead, even the factory made a lead barrel
for the 210-5.
You can use polycoated bullets but expect some leading after 200-300 rounds.
I changed the barrel in both my -5 and -6 to a aftermarket 1 in 18 barrel.
Cast lead bullets are good now to over 1100fps.
My 25m load is 128g roundnose wad cutter with 2.8g bullseye avg.880 fps, pistol fitted
with a reduced slide spring.
Shoots a 1.5" group off the bench, still not as good as my revolver at 1".


Hi David

Would you be willing to share which barrel maker you choose for your 210s?

Thanks

Brian


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:28 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:43 pm
Posts: 1024
IGB custom barrel for SIG P210
http://www.igbaustria.com/shop/product_ ... -p210.html


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:43 pm
Posts: 1024
Leadbelly wrote:
Many years ago 7 or 8 of us serious reloaders started working on the best 9mm load.
Using a lead cast 124 or 125 gr bullet with 4.0 grs of Win 231 gave us super accuracy
with velocities, out of 6 different pistols, of around 1,025 fps. I have since then loaded over 15,000+
rounds with at load. NOTE: Win 231 and Hodgdon HP38 work exactly the same. We mostly
used Fed small primers.
Hope this helps
Fred

Thats a hot load for ISSF single handed shooting.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:13 pm
Posts: 1829
Location: Sydney, Australia
David M wrote:
Leadbelly wrote:
Many years ago 7 or 8 of us serious reloaders started working on the best 9mm load.
Using a lead cast 124 or 125 gr bullet with 4.0 grs of Win 231 gave us super accuracy
with velocities, out of 6 different pistols, of around 1,025 fps. I have since then loaded over 15,000+
rounds with at load. NOTE: Win 231 and Hodgdon HP38 work exactly the same. We mostly
used Fed small primers.
Hope this helps
Fred

Thats a hot load for ISSF single handed shooting.


Which raises the point that the 'bark' of a 9mm will not win you a lot of friends at an ISSF competition.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:40 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:20 pm
Posts: 5178
Location: Scottsdale AZ
"Which raises the point that the 'bark' of a 9mm will not win you a lot of friends at an ISSF competition."

Neither will stinky farts, but that won't stop you or the guy next to you.

If it ruffles their hair all the better.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:24 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:53 pm
Posts: 300
Spencer wrote:

Which raises the point that the 'bark' of a 9mm will not win you a lot of friends at an ISSF competition.


Strange how things have changed. Some int'l CF matches used to be not all that different than the National Match course fired with revolvers and tuned setvice autos.

I've gotten complaints for using a 38 special 1911 with the 2.7 gr Bullseye/wadcutter load.
But, I guess it's been some time ago that folks would commonly shoot actual P08 Parabellum Lugers for CF.

Jim


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:44 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:59 pm
Posts: 338
Location: Ottawa, Canada
While discussing 9mm for CF, my club like many others have seen an increase in action pistol shooting. Locally IPSC is incredibly popular and consequently the CZ shadow and Shadow 2 are as well along with Tanfoglio pistols. All this to say, how accurate are these action pistols for precision shooting.

I’ve been toying with the idea of purchasing one to encourage and maybe convince a few action shooters to try shooting for precision using their existing equipment. If I can lead by example with a gun thier using it may help.

Brian


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:37 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:53 pm
Posts: 300
Brian,

In response to your question, you may want to look at the current list of approved pistols for the CMP Service Pistol matches:

http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/CM ... istols.pdf

You could also refer to the CMP or bullseye-L discussion forum to see what's working out in these matches.
I think the Springfield Armory XD Match is enjoying some favor, as is one of the CZ and/or SIG pistols.

Best Regards,
Jim


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