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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:45 pm 
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Location: Denmark
I bought an, I believe, early model FAS 607 (22 LR) a few months back. I have put maybe 2-300 rounds through it so far.

The pistol fits me really well, but I have experienced some malfunctions. The empty cases sometimes do not "leave" the pistol properly, clearly shown by the cases being "dented" by the slide crushing them against the outside of the barrel. This also happens after cleaning, but maybe I am not thorough enough. I think it happens mainly with weaker loads, in my case SK pistol match, and less with more powerful rounds such as CCI Std velocity.

The magazine lips should be wide enough to allow the empty case to slide back and hit the ejector part of the magazine. Now I worry that it may be caused by the extractor not gripping the cases strongly enough. I have observed that many times, the empty cases are ejected almost vertically - is this normal?

When I load a magazine with one round and chamber it, and pull back the slide, the round sort of falls down out of the extractor. I think the extractor should grip it more strongly and not allow this?

Does anyone have a guide to take apart the bolt, so I can get a better look at the extractor?

*Edit After 2-300 rounds (much likely closer to 200) I have had, to my best memory, 6-8 malfunctions, which seems to come in streaks. It works well most of the time, or it malfunctions repeatedly

Best regards
Jens


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 5:04 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:04 pm
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Location: Massachusetts
If you remove the bolt, or can access it OK, try just clipping a loaded round under the extractor against the bolt face. The round should be held securely enough that it won't fall out under its own weight. Also, if you push the nose of the bullet away from the extractor, it should take a little force to pop the round out. The extractor mechanism may just be dirty, or the spring may have weakened over time.

You say you have cleaned it, but you may not be getting the chamber really clean. The chamber is larger than the bore, and patches & brushes that will work OK in the bore may be too small to clean the chamber well. I use a 25 caliber rifle brush JUST to clean the chamber. A loaded round should drop easily into the chamber after you have cleaned it. It may not drop in all the way, depending on whether the rifling engages the bullet a bit or not.

It sounds like your extractor isn't holding onto the cases securely enough, but a dirty chamber can aggravate the problem.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 6:19 pm 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
Depending on how well cared for the pistol is, some rimfire guns which have been dry fired or decocked by pulling the trigger without protecting the breach can get a "ding" where the hammer strikes the breach face. This creates a small lip protruding into the chamber mouth which can interfere with extraction. The issue is resolved with a Menck chamber iron (Brownells used to stock them) or some very light filing with a round Swiss file. The chamber iron is best as it pushes the metal back into the ding. Roy Dunlap showed how to make one in his gun smithing book.

Bob


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:12 am 
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Location: Denmark
Thank you for the replies

When I remove the bolt and try to clip in a round, I am not actually able to clip it in, because the grip is so weak. It almost looks like the extractor hook is not 'deep' enough to make contact as such

Best regards


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:53 am 
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Location: Denmark
I tried taking some pictures, although the quality may not be that great, it was quite hard to get the camera to focus properly

It is quite difficult to see, but there is a small mark on the chamber. The mark looks to be exactly above where the firing pin strikes the round.

The extractor does not grip the round at all, even the slightest tilt, and the round would fall of the bolt face. I guess new parts are pretty hard to come by. Do you think a possible fix could be to have a gunsmith machine a new extractor? (are they just a "piece of metal" or would they be really difficult to make?)


Best regards


Attachments:
File comment: Chamber mark
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File comment: Extractor gripping badly
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File comment: Round chambered
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 7:41 am 
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Location: Aotearoa/NZ
On a blowback pistol the extractor does not usually do much anyway, so I would not attribute that to your failures. You may find removing the extractor will improve things.

Is the chamber totally free of carbon? Looks like the cartridge is not seated to depth...

Swapping between cartridge types can make this problem a bit worse. Skirt, ogive, and powder all make a difference to the situation that occurs in the chamber.
CCI Standard is grunty enough to blow itself out even with a bunch of crap in the chamber. SK is very nice ammunition, but less power means the mechanics of the pistol have to be well sorted.
I wouldn't worry about the firing pin mark on the chamber, that is not deforming anything.
An extractor is just a bit of metal should not be hard to find someone to make you another one with a longer nose.

I would do the following.

1) Clean the rim seating surface with a toothpick or very carefully with a soft metal scraping tool.
2) Clean the chamber only to the throat depth. Not deeper otherwise you can wreck the throat of the bore. Nylon is best to save wear, bronze only if it is really shitty and even then do your utmost to avoid wearing the throat.
3) Clean between changing ammunition type, even if just a quick swab out with a nylon brush and a patch.
4) Oil and free up the extractor, see if any crap comes out with oil. It should be free.

If in doubt add more oil.

If none of this works you should use the FAS only for fishing (ballast), and buy a GSP ;)

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:24 am 
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It looks like the extractor is just a flat piece of metal, which is pretty common. A good gunsmith can make a new one, but it's fussy work & won't be cheap. I'd work first on making sure there is no crud or a weak spring preventing the existing one from hanging onto the case. If you push outward on the extractor tip, does it feel smooth? Does it require much force? If you can push the extractor sideways with the tip of your thumb without it hurting a tiny bit, your spring may be weak, which should be easy to fix.

The firing pin dent on the chamber edge doesn't look all that bad, and probably isn't a factor. If the chamber is clean, and a round goes in smoothly and comes out without a mark in that area, you should be OK.

It's true that the extractor doesn't pull the case out of the chamber, the case pushes on the slide. However, once the case has cleared the chamber, the only thing that will ensure it hits the ejector properly is the case's momentum and the extractor's grip on it. While many centerfire pistols with eject OK without an extractor, .22 cases don't have enough mass to really eject well in most pistols without the extractor. I've certainly repaired a LOT of ejection problems by making sure the extractor had a good grip on the cases. The difference between reliable cycling and frequent jams can be fairly subtle.

One of the issues is the angle on the nose of the extractor. If it's at the wrong angle, it can actually push the case down off of the bolt face. Here is a video that talks about it in relation to centerfire pistols, but the same issue can occur with .22's:

https://youtu.be/uPOqk2gKQdw


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 6:13 pm 
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Location: Sydney, Australia
I agree that this breach face ding can be ignored.

In photo 3, the extractor looks good and (though difficult to see) it appears to be hard up against the case. But, the other photos show a bit of crud build-up around the chamber edge and in the extractor cutaway (which should be cleaned off using a soft metal pick - bronze welding rod with a sharpened point). This indicates there may be crud built up under the extractor preventing it closing properly on the case. That should be easy enough to check if the extractor moves closer to the chamber when there is not a case on the bolt face (check it moves freely). The other possibility is, as mentioned above, a weak extractor spring stopping the extractor from gripping the case properly.

I wouldn't think that the extractor itself needs replacing - the hook looks quite sharp and unworn from the side though closer examination of the hook would be a good idea if it appears worn it could be touched up with a fine stone.

Bob


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:18 pm 
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I have found that the only way to completely clean the extractor/firing pin/slide face was to use an ultrasonic cleaner with grease and wax remover fluid or even a degreaser and water solution. This approach removes more than the superficial crud that by itself is often not the problem. You need to get to what is not obvious.

Read everything Gwhite has written and then using a magnifying device make sure the sharp point of the extractor has not broken off. It must extend to a very sharp edge.

I have owned two 607's and had a little trouble with one not extracting reliably. The very end of the extractor claw was missing and for some reason the extractor Spring had lost about 50% of its tension.

I replaced the extractor first and it worked reliably but spat the cases all over the place and with not much force or reliable direction. After a new extractor spring was also installed it ejected the cases with force and consistency.


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 3:27 am 
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Location: Denmark
Thank you for the suggestions, I will try and clean it properly around the extractor and the chamber.
The photo of the extractor gripping the round is a bit misleeding, the extractor doesn't actually "grip" the round, and the round will fall out easily, even if I just tilted the bolt slightly.

*deadeyedick how did you remove the extractor from the bolt? I can only see one pin at the back of the bolt, which I believe keeps the firing pin in place, but maybe it also holds the extractor?

I would say it does take some force to push out the extractor with my thumb. I did notice some green-ish crud on both sides of the ejector, maybe there is more on the side that goes against the bolt. I will check / clean this, when I figure out how to remove it

Best regards


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 6:35 am 
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If my memory serves me right the extractor is removed by carefully pulling it outwards until the pivot arm is released from a hole in the slide. Be careful as there is a pin and spring in there as well. Lose those parts and you will not be shooting for a while.
In fact I would not attempt to remove the extractor unless it either had a broken spring or the end of the claw was broken off, which you will not be completely sure of until closer examination by magnification.
If it was me I would clean the entire slide assembly in a ultrasonic unit for some time then blow if with compressed air and lube with machine oil, finally observing the operation of the extractor mechanism.

The ejector is usually the left lip of the magazine that when the rearward moving case makes contact it guides the case to the right.

The whole process relies on the ignition forcing the slide back until the case hits the left upper lip of the magazine forcing it to be turned to the right while at the same time releasing the rim from the extractor.

I do not know what the green crud is but an honest clean is first job on your list I would say.


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:35 am 
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Location: Massachusetts
The FAS extractor mechanism is fairly standard. The same design is used on Benellis & High Standards, for example. The extractor is held in place by the pin that pushes on it. The extractor has a notch cut in the outer rear corner, and the pin is cut roughly half way through near the forward tip. Once the extractor is in place, the cutout portion of the pin fits over the rear corner of the notch in the extractor, holding everything in place.

To remove the extractor, you need a jeweler's screwdriver slightly narrower than the width of the extractor slot. You will want to hold the bolt in a padded vise. You need to push the screwdriver into the slot at the rear of the extractor so that it fits in front of the pin. This may require a little wiggling, because the nose of the pin is pushing on the rear of the extractor, and you need to wedge the screwdriver down between them.

Then, push the screwdriver sideways to the rear of the bolt to retract the pin, while applying inward pressure on the tip of the extractor. When the pin (& screwdriver) are back far enough, the extractor should pivot out of the slot enough to clear the tip of the pin. You can then pull the extractor out of the slot sideways. Depending on how strong the spring is & how well you have secured the pin with the tip of the screwdriver, it's a good idea to have a shop towel or plastic bag in front of the bolt in case the pin gets launched.

As long as things aren't too dirty or corroded, or the spring really strong, the whole process is very quick once you have the right tools & a bit of practice.

If that seems a bit daunting, you can try cleaning the mechanism with aerosol cleaner, and a lot of wiggling of the extractor to help flush out any crud.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:27 am 
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Location: Denmark
After grinding down a screw driver quite a low, I managed to take apart the extractor. I cleaned the entire bolt and extractor parts completely.

I looks to me like the claw of the extractor is broken off. I have ordered a new extractor from the manufacturer. Hopefully this will resolve the issue.

Now I just have to wait for the new part to arrive.


Attachments:
File comment: Extractor claw - broken off
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IMG_20170605_202659.jpg [ 89.22 KiB | Viewed 740 times ]
File comment: Extractor
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:33 am 
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With the new extractor replaced it will spit the cases out of sight. The missing sharp end is the secret.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:38 am 
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jens_ms wrote:
After grinding down a screw driver quite a low, I managed to take apart the extractor. I cleaned the entire bolt and extractor parts completely.

I looks to me like the claw of the extractor is broken off. I have ordered a new extractor from the manufacturer. Hopefully this will resolve the issue.

Now I just have to wait for the new part to arrive.

Yeah, that looks pretty suspicious. Glad you got it out without too much drama. Putting the new one in should be quick & easy.

Before installing the new one, check it for any burrs, and make sure the hook is nice & sharp. If it isn't, LIGHTLY stone the nose. Don't remove any significant material from the back of the hook.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:33 pm 
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Location: Montreal, Québec, Canada
This thread is why I love TargetTalk, but hate the search function.
Google found the thread, the site search function doesn't.

My new (to me) FAS 607 seems to have a bad extractor. But I haven't shot it yet. Hopefully I'll see that it works fine come Sunday morning when I go to the range.

The reason I started searching for extractor issues is that while my S&W handily extracts and ejects wall plugs and empty casings quite vigorously, the FAS607 doesn't even budge either from the chamber.

If I do have problems, I've got the suggestions in this thread to try. Going to use a cleaner and lubricate the gun tonight or tomorrow. Looking so forward to see how the pistol feels with live fire.

Question: Anyone know how serial numbers on the FAS pistols match up with date of manufacture? The only information the dealer/importer could give me is that mine seems to have come in a shipment of used firearms from Sweden IIRC.

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- Smith & Wesson SW22 Victory
- FAS SP607


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:08 pm 
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Location: Western Washington State, USA
Greetings,

With Italian pistols, look for a rectangular box with two letters inside of it located under the frame.

Compare your letters with the chart below.

Understand that the marks indicate when the pistol was "proofed" not manufactured.

http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/IDC/idc.html

Cheers,

Dave


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:39 am 
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Location: Denmark
Actually, the new extractor made no difference, it would barely even touch the casing. I found out that the barrel would have to be re-seated, apparantly this is a common issue with earlier models (I guess those without the takedown lever). But because of the prices of danish gunsmiths, and their, I imagine, almost total lack of experience with match pistols, I decided to not get it done.

By adjusting the screw that controls the seating depth of the magazine, I got it to work reliably the last 3-500 rounds, with no malfunctions. That is, until the firing pin broke.

If it has not been done I would suggest using som low strength threadlock on the screw that controls sear engagement. Without, mine would unscrew itself pretty quickly.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:45 am 
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jens_ms wrote:
Actually, the new extractor made no difference, it would barely even touch the casing.


Thanks for the update.

I fired my SP607 for the first time yesterday morning. As far as the trigger goes, all I can say is wow. And whoever had the pistol before me has the trigger and sights adjusted wonderfully.

Kept 50 rounds in the black.

The problems were with the magazine and with feeding. CCI SV seems to be obviously too long for the magazine. Cartridges wouldn't always load correctly.

Then there is obviously a problem with the top of the magazine. Banana'd a couple cartridges and took a chunk out of the bullet o a couple others. Cases were obviously jamming on the way out. Even by hand it was difficult to make them budge. Spread the top apart a bit and that helped some.

But a couple of other jams and failures to chamber the next round showed that the cartridges were binding in the magazine.

_________________
- Smith & Wesson SW22 Victory
- FAS SP607


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:57 am 
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I recently started using SK Standard Plus in my FAS 602 and they seem to be working very well!


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