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 Post subject: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:20 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:49 pm
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Location: Valencia County 4-H, NM USA
Can anyone point out to me in the rifle rules or interpretations where it says:
1) No tape on rifles (note I know the rule about none for holding on weights)?
2) No reference points on the cheekpieces?

I did searches and looking last night and cannot find rules that state or appear to state these .... as the EC is enforcing them at USAS National this week. And don't tell me it is in the "2017 USAS Rules document" as there is no such document yet published. (The last published rulebook for rifle was 2014)


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:52 pm 
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USAS is enforcing the new rules implemented by the ISSF 2017-2020 rule changes.

- Rifle Weights. Weights attached to any part of the rifle except the barrel “must be within the fundamental shape of the stock” (weights cannot protrude out from the stock). Tape cannot be used to attach weights.

- I am not sure about the second one. I can imagine that it has to do with how presentable the firearm is.

http://www.issf-sports.org/news.ashx?newsid=2700


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:39 pm 
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Location: Valencia County 4-H, NM USA
1) I understand about not being able to tape on weights. What I am asking is what rule can you site about no tape on the gun overall... i.e to help referencing & such.

2) What rule applies to having no reference for your cheek on the cheekpiece? Or something like vetwrap or moleskin on your cheekpiece to soak up sweat, keep your cheek from slipping, or as a reference?

"This is what ISSF says" don't cut it ... it has to be a written rule or interpretation .... not pulled out of the air.
Or as I was told ... it will be in the "new ISSF rules" .... yeah? Well it ain't a rule yet .... until it's published.

(sorta like the the non-existent 2017 USAS rules)


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:50 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:33 pm
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File a protest then.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:38 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:39 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Texas
You probably already know this, the latest rulebook on the ISSF website says it is published Jan 2017. I don't know if it is the 2014 with a new date, or if the new rules are in it. It does say that weights may not be taped on, so at least that new rule is in there.

http://www.issf-sports.org/theissf/rules.ashx


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:12 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:55 pm
Posts: 928
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
jhmartin wrote:
1) I understand about not being able to tape on weights. What I am asking is what rule can you site about no tape on the gun overall... i.e to help referencing & such.

2) What rule applies to having no reference for your cheek on the cheekpiece? Or something like vetwrap or moleskin on your cheekpiece to soak up sweat, keep your cheek from slipping, or as a reference?

"This is what ISSF says" don't cut it ... it has to be a written rule or interpretation .... not pulled out of the air.
Or as I was told ... it will be in the "new ISSF rules" .... yeah? Well it ain't a rule yet .... until it's published.

(sorta like the the non-existent 2017 USAS rules)

This are the articles you are looking for (ISSF rules 2017):

7.4.2.6 Material that gives increased grip may not be added to the fore-end, pistol grip or lower part of the stock.

7.4.2.7 Weights
e) Taping of any kind may not be used to attach weights to the rifle.

None of them forbid the use of tape to mark positions. Although one could argue that that is contrary to the "intent" of these rules...
I would replace the tape with a little mark made by one of those pens that can write on CD/DVD's, just to avoid arguing with the judges...

Hope this helps


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:42 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:16 pm
Posts: 154
that might be one of those rules like the one a junior at the J.O.s was told:

"its against the rules to have your chair so far back from the firing line" (the junior had placed her gear bag on top of her rifle case at the back side of the firing point, and placed her chair just in front of those)...

or it could be as one of the ROs told me, "we have to balance what rules we enforce and dont enforce"...


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:49 pm
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Location: Valencia County 4-H, NM USA
I'm being kinda facetious ... there are no such rules.
They are someone's unwritten interpretations

just my way of blowing steam ....


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:42 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:16 pm
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jhmartin wrote:
I'm being kinda facetious ... there are no such rules.
They are someone's unwritten interpretations

just my way of blowing steam ....



yes maybe so, but what i related was spot on factual events...

unfortunately...


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:45 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:44 am
Posts: 35
We went through the same discussions this past week... there are NO rules that forbid this!

We had to get a very Senior judge to make a call to the Fort Benning staff.

_________________
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Rob Tucker
http://www.TheShootersEdge.us


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:49 pm
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Location: Valencia County 4-H, NM USA
Hey Rob ... that's where we are too!


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:57 pm 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
Can you explain a bit more what this was about? Someone moved the chair that was behind their firing point? I don't get it.

Bear in mind that local range rules trump all competition rules, at least they do where I shoot.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:01 am 
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Modena wrote:
Can you explain a bit more what this was about? Someone moved the chair that was behind their firing point? I don't get it.

Bear in mind that local range rules trump all competition rules, at least they do where I shoot.


the range officers at the Junior Olympics made it abundantly clear that the competitors were to have all of their gear (bags, shoes, rifle cases etc) behind their chairs so that the Judges could approache from either side without worry of tripping over something. fair enough...

the floor of the upstairs range at the Olympic Training Center is poured concrete slabs. the area behind the firing points, for each shooter extends back to a joint line in the floor. this is about 12' maybe 15' behind the firing line (and benches)...

the junior in question had stacked her gear bag on top of her rifle case and "grounded them" (military term for touching the line) and then put her chair right in front of the stacked gear. this left about a 6-7' space between the chair and the back leg of the shooter...

one of the judges came up to her and told her "your chair is too far back from you, so you have to move it up" is this in the ISSF/USAS/NRA rule book? not that ive ever seen. is this an OTC range rule? i dont know because none of the Juniors were ever given a "range specific" rule book that specifically spelled out the measurable distances allowed between chairs and the firing line...


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:01 am 
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Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Ltdave wrote:
the range officers at the Junior Olympics made it abundantly clear that the competitors were to have all of their gear (bags, shoes, rifle cases etc) behind their chairs so that the Judges could approache from either side without worry of tripping over something. fair enough...

Ltdave,

In this case, the range officers acted according to the rules (ISSF):

6.4.3.4 There must be sufficient space behind the firing points for the range officials and the Jury to perform their duties.

Their previous anouncement of how the competitors should have stored their gear, is within the scope of their duties, specially if it is to ensure a trouble free competition.
The remark made to the shooter to properly store her gear, after the inicial indications, is also within the scope of their duties (and common sense...)

I understand that a comment or an order from a range officer can bring unwanted stress, specially to a junior shooter, but that is something that can, and will, happen more often than you'ld like.
The best way to cope with this is to include all kind of "exceptional situations" in the training.
Explain to your juniors that a match doesn't always run smoothly, but that should be a problem.
They have to deal with the situation and get back to shooting as if nothing happend.

Hope this helps


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:18 am 
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Location: A new global Great Britain
I would have thought having the chair pushed back so there was 6-7ft between the chair and the firing point was within the spirit of the rule. The range officers wanted the space behind the chair presumably.
In UK we call those people "Jobsworths" However that's their role and resistance is pointless.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:53 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 2302
Location: Valencia County 4-H, NM USA
I did attend Nationals this year, but did not work it.
It seemed to me that there were more observers/parents/coaches than usual. And that is with the AMU office being removed in the center of the range.

While they did actively enforce the area that was considered "in play" behind the tables, I thought it worked out quite well for all. Very easy to move from one end of the range to the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:16 pm
Posts: 154
rmca wrote:
Ltdave wrote:
the range officers at the Junior Olympics made it abundantly clear that the competitors were to have all of their gear (bags, shoes, rifle cases etc) behind their chairs so that the Judges could approache from either side without worry of tripping over something. fair enough...

Ltdave,

In this case, the range officers acted according to the rules (ISSF):

6.4.3.4 There must be sufficient space behind the firing points for the range officials and the Jury to perform their duties.

Their previous anouncement of how the competitors should have stored their gear, is within the scope of their duties, specially if it is to ensure a trouble free competition.
The remark made to the shooter to properly store her gear, after the inicial indications, is also within the scope of their duties (and common sense...)

I understand that a comment or an order from a range officer can bring unwanted stress, specially to a junior shooter, but that is something that can, and will, happen more often than you'ld like.
The best way to cope with this is to include all kind of "exceptional situations" in the training.
Explain to your juniors that a match doesn't always run smoothly, but that should be a problem.
They have to deal with the situation and get back to shooting as if nothing happend.

Hope this helps



there WAS plenty of space between the shooter and anyone who was within the 'firing point area' the RO said her chair was too far back. there was enough room for 3 ROs to walk between the girl and her chair. this particular RO wanted the chair CLOSER to the shooter.

i guess the best way to understand this is to have actually been there. there was zero need to move her chair forward and zero need for this particular RO to even open her mouth.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:20 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Posts: 361
JUnior olympics (usa match) , in my opinion are much much more junior friendly than half a dzn yrs ago. That said there will always be range officers that act like that. I tell my shooters to just laugh at them, preferably on the inside. I also harrass them occasionally at practice.


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 Post subject: Re: Question on Rules
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:13 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:55 pm
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Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Ltdave wrote:
there was zero need to move her chair forward and zero need for this particular RO to even open her mouth.

Even so, the fact that that happend shouldn't have affected the junior's performance.
Move the chair, get back in position, dry fire a couple of shots and get on with the match... total time lost 1-2 minutes... that's all.

There will always be "more sensitive" RO's on the line, and since you can't (shouldn't...) shoot them, teach your juniors to ignore this type of incidents and get on with the task at hand...

Hope this helps


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