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 Post subject: Commercial .22 test rigs
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:46 pm 
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Location: UK South
I'm having one of my periodic obsessions with putting together a moveable bench test rig at our club, without spending tooo much money.

I look online at the Thune, HPS and Tec-Hro off the shelf, equipment rail mounting .22 rigs, pause, then decide it's too much £££ to gamble on the wrong one and then go off the idea again.

.... but it would be so much easier to tune the Starik tube (other brands are available), try before buying and even do small-time batch testing on our home range with various brands and less expensive ammo for training. I know I can benchrest and aim with SCATT, but I confess I'm looking for a more solid option as we're spoilt with ELEY just 2.5 hours up the road.

Does anyone have any comparative info or comments on any of the available recoiling .22 rigs (not including those where you have to clamp the stock...)? Or maybe pictures of affordable custom made versions that work well?

Thanks in advance


Pete J

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:25 pm 
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Let us know what you find. I've given some thought to building one to simulate the prone position with strain gauges capturing recoil forces.

Mark


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:47 pm 
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Patriot, I know what you mean... hours of 'creative' thinking and talking have gone into this, but it seems like I'm circling round a project I don't have the time, knowledge or funds to progress.

Keep an eye out here and hopefully we'll learn something.

I should've put links down for the items I first mentioned, so here they are:
https://www.hps-tr.com/en/test-rig
http://www.shootingequipment.de/Range-equipment/Schooting-machines/MEC-portable-1961.html
http://tec-hro.de/schiesssport/en/rifle-equipment/327-tec-hro-ammunition-test-bench.html

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:33 am 
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Hello Pete,

As far as I'm concerned, I've always been very satisfied with my ESP rest. It works very well, it's a very simple design and it's affordable.

Image

It's on page 8 of this catalog: http://www.robinsonrifle.org/wp/wp-cont ... 2016-1.pdf


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:32 am 
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Location: Taunton, Somerset
Paul wrote:
Hello Pete,

As far as I'm concerned, I've always been very satisfied with my ESP rest. It works very well, it's a very simple design and it's affordable.


I think that's the same as the HPS (and Robert Nibbs' System Gemini version). It's originally a Russian design; the name Kudellin (sp?) is in my mind. I'm sure there were details of how to make one on the old UIT Mailing List. I think the bar rides on brass or Teflon bearings.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:24 am 
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Tim,

You are absolutely right, this type of rest was initially designed in Russia.

I don't have any experience with the HPS but in the past, I tested the old Kurt Thune model that was very similar and the ESP has a much better design. The indexing pin under the cylindrical bar makes the recoil very consistent.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:51 am 
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Paul, Tim, thanks for this. I like the look of it and wonder whether the shipping will be affordable, but the comparison with the HPS price, even with VAT, duty and shipping might just work.

I love the fact that ESP/Bill Earnest doesn't have an email address or website, so I will take great pleasure in calling him from England to see if we can fix something up.

I'll let you know how I get on.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:46 pm 
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I am also very interested in these rigs. I have found that our old fixed bed test rig gives very different results to shooting off the shoulder. And it's even worse now I have a Starik bloop tube.
I haven't seen any of these rigs up close but I assume they all have some way of keeping the rifle upright but while still letting the rifle recoil?
Cheers
Martin


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:40 am 
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Martin H wrote:
...I assume they all have some way of keeping the rifle upright but while still letting the rifle recoil?
Cheers
Martin


Martin, I have the same question. The ESP has a post at the bottom that runs in a slot on the base that I assumed took care of that, but on closer inspection the HPS and Gemini don't have the same feature, so I'm a bit confused. There's a single post at the back of those that looks like it has a role to play.

In between times I have called EPS, who don't have stock, but can make to order and ship and the shipping looks affordable.

I've also found an online pic of what is labelled as an original Kudelin that I thought would be interesting to share:
Attachment:
File comment: Kudelin test rig
kudelin-rifle-test-rig.JPG
kudelin-rifle-test-rig.JPG [ 87.51 KiB | Viewed 514 times ]

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:11 am 
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Pete,

I think the HPS and Gemini have a vertical post, like the one at the back left on your picture, to prevent the rifle tipping over, when using the stock and fore-end bar.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:43 am 
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Thanks Tim, I think that must be, although it seems a bit hit and miss to let the stock/post interface interfere with a lateral force by leaning the rifle onto it. I like the look of the vertical post under the EPS better, as it seems more repeatable and balanced.

On a related point, the Thune has a magnet to provide resistance at trigger pull: "Biathlon rifle trigger weight no problem as slide moment backwards start is regulated with a magnet." The implication is that typical sub 150g prone/3P rifle trigger weight isn't a problem against the inherent friction in the system.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:48 am 
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My choice would be http://tec-hro.de/schiesssport/en/rifle-equipment/327-tec-hro-ammunition-test-bench.html as I think it would allow the rifle to move closest to the movement when shooting from the shoulder.

I too have had thoughts about instrumenting a rifle to record the forces when it's fired but it's fell into the don't have time bucket. Also I suspect that the SCATT MX-02 could be used to compare the recoil movement between shoulder and test bench.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:27 am 
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Peter_Scant wrote:
My choice would be http://tec-hro.de/schiesssport/en/rifle-equipment/327-tec-hro-ammunition-test-bench.html as I think it would allow the rifle to move closest to the movement when shooting from the shoulder.


Thanks Peter, that's one under consideration. My query about the Tec-hro is what happens on the recoil return. Is it a jolt against the return bolt or is there some damping? While not quite the same, I've had reservations about the side clamping leaf spring in-stock test rigs (the ones with 4 rubber headed clamp bolts), as they spring back to a hard stop. I'm not so comfortable with the impact of those rattling everything. However, this is all supposition. Do you know how the Tec-hro returns or anyone who has experience with this or any other?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:31 am 
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Hi Pete

I've been talking to Robert Nibbs regarding purchasing one of his test rigs for Chobham. The post at the rear is to allow consistent repeatable cant angle (to match what you shoot with). Guy Starik has told me that to tune his tube in on a test bench the rifle needs to be allowed to recoil up and back (and not clamped), I would be concerned that the TEC-hro would allow the back but not the up. My money would be on Robert's Gemini rig.

cheers Bryan


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:40 am 
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Thanks Bryan. That's useful re the Starik, as that's one of my main motivations.

I confess I might put my money on EPS, as even with shipping it works out a lot less £, although I might need to be more patient.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:35 pm 
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PeteJ wrote:
Peter_Scant wrote:
My choice would be http://tec-hro.de/schiesssport/en/rifle-equipment/327-tec-hro-ammunition-test-bench.html as I think it would allow the rifle to move closest to the movement when shooting from the shoulder.


Thanks Peter, that's one under consideration. My query about the Tec-hro is what happens on the recoil return. Is it a jolt against the return bolt or is there some damping? While not quite the same, I've had reservations about the side clamping leaf spring in-stock test rigs (the ones with 4 rubber headed clamp bolts), as they spring back to a hard stop. I'm not so comfortable with the impact of those rattling everything. However, this is all supposition. Do you know how the Tec-hro returns or anyone who has experience with this or any other?


As long as the rifle returns to the same point I don't think it matters what happens on the return.

When thinking about this it is well worth to consider that the bullet takes about 4 milliseconds to exit the barrel and in that time the rifle will move back about .01 inches. What the rifle does after this time / movement is irrelevant to the bullet's path.
Note: these numbers were done on the back of a beer soaked napkin, where all good engineering calcs are done, using simplifications to get order of magnitude numbers.

Sorry, I don't use any test rig to test and don't know anyone with the Tec-Hro. FWIW, I test from the shoulder with a high power scope and a rest under my hand.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:44 pm 
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Peter_Scant wrote:
PeteJ wrote:
Peter_Scant wrote:
As long as the rifle returns to the same point I don't think it matters what happens on the return.


Sorry Peter, I didn't quite explain. I understand the recoil point, but my reservation is about turning the whole thing into a big tuning fork after the shot has gone and the rifle jolts back. I have experience of a side clamped stock working loose, but don't think it's such a graceful solution, unless the return is damped. I don't have any proof for my suspicion that a return impulse might mean the barrel can rest in a slightly different position, so I'm showing my mechanical ignorance here...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:06 pm 
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I don't know how hard it would hit on the return, but I would bet TEC-HRO would be able to tell you if you emailed them.

Incidently I noticed Kurt Thune has a new one using a linear bearing http://www.kurtthune.com/products/accessories/x9-test-bench


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:07 pm 
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I'm. Using for many years a rig built by a German shooter named Ulli Lind.
It is similar to the Tec Hro rig but more rigid.
It goes back and up and returnes to zero.
I haven't tried the Tec Hro rig,but it should work just fine.
Guy.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:16 pm 
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Guy, Would you mind posting a picture Ulli Lind's test rig?


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