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 Post subject: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:20 pm
Posts: 4655
Location: Scottsdale AZ
In the Olympic pistol area, we see frequent talk about bore cleaning air pistols. I admit that once in a while I'll break the end off a Q-Tip and shoot it in my AP. I'm not an air rifle shooter (I only have two, never cleaned), but I wondered if any of you guys are concerned about cleaning the bore of your match air rifles.


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:30 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:59 am
Posts: 356
Location: A new global Great Britain
If regularly using clean decent pellets I would consider air rifles to be self-cleaning.

Of the two rifles I used at 10m, Walther and AirArms, both have recommended a pull-through every 1000 pellets and Walther even supplied a nylon pull-through and cotton swabs with the LG200.
I consider the times an air weapon barrel should be lightly cleaned is
1) when brand new or
2) when recommissioning after oiled storage.
In both cases one oiled and two dry pulls will be enough. I use Napier of London oil and patches.

Other opinions will be available no doubt and feedback from a national rated shooter would be interesting..


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:16 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:09 pm
Posts: 442
Nope, never. I don't plan on cleaning my match air rifle until I find evidence that it's beneficial because I'd have to take my barrel off to use a rod.


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:12 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:02 pm
Posts: 139
Rover - to date, I've fired about 2500 pellets through my air rifle.

I have yet to clean it, and have not noticed a need for it (yet).

I have shot different brands, & weights of pellets through it, and it will still hit the center of the target, consistently. I have an entire bag of those felt cleaning pellets. I used them once or twice when the rifle was new, but never really noticed any difference?

-tc


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:02 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:38 am
Posts: 48
Location: Melbourne, Australia
I know nothing about air rifles, but simple logic would tell me that unless you're using medical grade compressed air (and you're not) then discharging air through your rifle is introducing fine particle contaminants into the barrel (the air was not perfectly filtered going in). Do this enough and you're going to get some sort of build up (no matter how microscopic) that over time is going to change the behaviour.

And yes, if you're thinking it, not even firing the air rifle and just having it out in the "open" air means dust and contaminants are getting in.


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:02 pm
Posts: 139
Anschutz 8002 S2 air rifle
Precharged pneumatic
Bolt-action
Single-shot
Right-hand or left-hand cocking configuration
Front sight globe accepts inserts
Adj. diopter rear sight
200 bar max pressure
Removable air reservoir with integral manometer (air pressure gauge)
Air pressure regulator with air filter
Approx. 200 shots per fill
Maintenance-free stabilizer
5-way adj. match trigger
Adj. forearm
Anodized aluminum frame
Right-hand stock
PRO-grip cheekpiece, forearm & grip have a rough, anti-skid finish
Highly adj. buttpad
Dry-fire capability
Overall length varies from 42.13" to 43.31" due to adj. buttpad
7.94 lbs. to 10.14 lbs.
50g to 170g trigger-pull (1.764 oz. to 5.996 oz.)
Incl. accessory box, manual and test target
Meets ISSF requirements


Walther LG400 Anatomic Expert air rifle
Precharged pneumatic
Bolt-action
Single-shot
Right-hand grip
Adjustable medium 3D grip with memory effect
Front sight globe accepts inserts
Adj. diopter rear sight
300 or 200 bar fill pressures
Removable aluminum air reservoir with integral manometer (air pressure gauge)
Pressure reducer with QUICKCLEAN air filter
5-way adj. match trigger (VARIO trigger offers extremely fine settings)
50g to 120g trigger-pull
Ergonomic loading lever can be placed on the left-hand or right-hand side
Carbon fiber barrel jacket
ECO valve technology (minimal opening pulse and reduced shot development time)
Loading status indicator
Dry-fire mechanism
Approximately 600 shots per fill
Highly adjustable laminated wood stock with a wide range of settings and T-slot rail
EQUALIZER magnetic absorber system
Infinitely adjustable forearm with knee joint
Light metal buttplate MEC CONTACT III
Tension-free barrel mount
Barrel, forearm and buttplate weights
1075 to 1100mm L x 280mm H x 50mm W
650mm to 850mm sight length
290mm to 370mm stock length
420mm barrel length
50 grams to 120 grams trigger-pull weight
4100 grams
Meets ISSF requirements
Includes hard case and tools

Feinwerkbau has this to say, regarding cleaning (they make no mention of any filtration units):


Major cleaning
Major cleaning should be done at least once a year:
⇒ Perform the regular cleaning. Additionally:
⇒ Carefully rub off all grease residues
from the trigger parts.
⇒ Grease slightly the trigger parts only at
their edges with special grease.
Barrel cleaning
The barrel inside should be cleaned if required.
For cleaning
⇒ Pass some commercial cleaning kit through the barrel, e.g. some oily rods. ⇒ Pass some commercial cleaning kit through the barrel, e.g. dry cleaning rods, until these are no more showing
oil or dirt traces.
Barrel oiling
The barrel inside should only be slightly oiled if the ri e is not used for a longer time.
For cleaning
⇒ Pull an slightly oiled wick through the barrel.
Attention!
Before next shooting the oil must be re- moved from the barrel.
For removing the oil
⇒ Open manually the bolt.
⇒ Pull dry cleaning wicks through the
barrel until these are not showing any oil or dirt traces.


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:57 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:44 pm
Posts: 598
Location: Costa Rica, Central America
Modena wrote:
I know nothing about air rifles, but simple logic would tell me that unless you're using medical grade compressed air (and you're not) then discharging air through your rifle is introducing fine particle contaminants into the barrel (the air was not perfectly filtered going in). Do this enough and you're going to get some sort of build up (no matter how microscopic) that over time is going to change the behaviour.

The barrel will be fine when using pure lead pellets. Every pellet down the barrel will scrape out deposits from the pellets shot before. The problem with “unfiltered” compressed air is that overtime it will gunk up and may cause internal rust in the valve mechanism.

Modena wrote:
And yes, if you're thinking it, not even firing the air rifle and just having it out in the "open" air means dust and contaminants are getting in.

Not if you leave the pressurized cylinder attached to the air rifle. Most owners of ten meter match air rifles/pistols will keep their guns in a good case. If you’re that worried about dust and contamination, you can vacuum seal the airgun...


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:31 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:38 am
Posts: 48
Location: Melbourne, Australia
that's another point that occurred to me, what about moisture? Shooting many many rounds down the barrel does wonders for removing all traces of oil. Rust/corrosion ????


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:40 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:33 am
Posts: 1172
Location: Taunton, Somerset
kevinweiho wrote:
The barrel will be fine when using pure lead pellets. Every pellet down the barrel will scrape out deposits from the pellets shot before.


I'm no air gun shooter either, but I don't think pellets scrape out lead. In a smallbore barrel, lead can and will accumulate at rough spots, like tooling marks, and pitting. Once a little lead adheres to the bore, more will smear off from subsequent shots, until the deposit knocked free and the process begins anew. I realise that AR barrels don't develop wear from the primer, or have moisture-attracting powder residue, but does the pellet behave so differently to a bullet?


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:37 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:48 am
Posts: 128
Location: Hamilton Square NJ
Modena wrote:
I know nothing about air rifles, but simple logic would tell me that unless you're using medical grade compressed air (and you're not) then discharging air through your rifle is introducing fine particle contaminants into the barrel (the air was not perfectly filtered going in). Do this enough and you're going to get some sort of build up (no matter how microscopic) that over time is going to change the behaviour.

And yes, if you're thinking it, not even firing the air rifle and just having it out in the "open" air means dust and contaminants are getting in.


And how many angels do YOU think could dance on the head of a pin?

_________________
Norm
in beautiful, gun friendly New Jersey


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:07 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:44 pm
Posts: 598
Location: Costa Rica, Central America
Modena wrote:
that's another point that occurred to me, what about moisture? Shooting many many rounds down the barrel does wonders for removing all traces of oil. Rust/corrosion ????

MANY, MANY, rounds down the barrel will prevent rust from forming in the bore since every shot will remove a small amount of rust. If you rarely use your pistol/rifle or it’s a safe queen in a damp environment, then you should worry about rust.


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:11 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:44 pm
Posts: 598
Location: Costa Rica, Central America
Tim S wrote:
I realise that AR barrels don't develop wear from the primer, or have moisture-attracting powder residue, but does the pellet behave so differently to a bullet?

I think you already know the BIG difference in a rimfire is that there is a lot more energy and pressure involved in pushing the projectile out of the barrel.

In a match air rifle, the velocity is low that the accumulation of lead in the bore is minimal. Cleaning should be performed only when accuracy suffers, or for long term storage.


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:51 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:33 am
Posts: 1172
Location: Taunton, Somerset
kevinweiho wrote:
In a match air rifle, the velocity is low that the accumulation of lead in the bore is minimal. Cleaning should be performed only when accuracy suffers, or for long term storage.


Kevin,

I'm not arguing about how, or how often, match airguns need to be cleaned. I'm disputing your prior assertion that pellets will remove any lead from the bore; "Every pellet down the barrel will scrape out deposits from the pellets shot before". However, if you are suggesting that low pellet velocity, minimal pellet bearing surface, and bore smoothness mean that quality air guns simply don't attract lead, then we agree.


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:35 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:44 pm
Posts: 598
Location: Costa Rica, Central America
Tim S wrote:
Kevin, I'm not arguing about how, or how often, match airguns need to be cleaned. I'm disputing your prior assertion that pellets will remove any lead from the bore; "Every pellet down the barrel will scrape out deposits from the pellets shot before". However, if you are suggesting that low pellet velocity, minimal pellet bearing surface, and bore smoothness mean that quality air guns simply don't attract lead, then we agree.


Tim, if you were using pellets with a higher antimony content, (in a “magnum” high velocity air rifle) then the bore will accumulate more lead in a shorter period of time.

Pure lead pellets foul the barrel to a lesser degree, that is why many match airgun shooters rarely clean their bores.


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:57 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:33 am
Posts: 1172
Location: Taunton, Somerset
kevinweiho wrote:
Tim, if you were using pellets with a higher antimony content, (in a “magnum” high velocity air rifle) then the bore will accumulate more lead in a shorter period of time.

Pure lead pellets foul the barrel to a lesser degree, that is why many match airgun shooters rarely clean their bores.


Kevin,

I understand that, I agreen with you. However you still haven't answered my question of how pellets remove lead from the barrel. Leaving almost no lead is not the same as removing lead.


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:19 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:44 pm
Posts: 598
Location: Costa Rica, Central America
Tim S wrote:
Kevin, I understand that, I agreen with you. However you still haven't answered my question of how pellets remove lead from the barrel. Leaving almost no lead is not the same as removing lead.


Tim,

I did not say that the pellets would remove all the lead in the bore. I did mention that shooting pellets will scrape out some of the lead deposits shot before. Which part don’t you understand?

You don’t have to take my word for it. Ask match air rifle shooters in your area how frequently do they clean their barrels.


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:40 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:33 am
Posts: 1172
Location: Taunton, Somerset
kevinweiho wrote:
Tim S wrote:
Tim,

I did not say that the pellets would remove all the lead in the bore. I did mention that shooting pellets will scrape out some of the lead deposits shot before. Which part don’t you understand?

You don’t have to take my word for it. Ask match air rifle shooters in your area how frequently do they clean their barrels.


Kevin,

I'm starting to think that you are being deliberately obtuse. I fully understand what you have said. I am not disputing, and have not disputed the cleaning frequency of 10m air guns; if you think I have, please show me. What I asked, and what you have ignored, is why and how air pellets remove lead, any lead, when other projectiles do not? I fully appreciate that 10m air guns do not attract lead for all the factors discussed above, however none of these are evidence that pellets actually remove any lead at all, only that there is practically no lead deposited in the bore anyway. Superior bore finish, low pellet velocity, minimal bearing surface, and an absence of corrosive/erosive residue equal a very low cleaning frequency, but do not prove that pellets remove lead. Do you understand me?

I'll try another tack. We both agree that AR pellets leave almost no lead in the bore, but must leave some, if subsequent pellets scrape some out, correct? Do you mean that these minute traces don't adhere to the bore surface as they do in a smallbore barrel, probably because the lead is pure and the pellet velocity is low? And that because the lead doesn't adhere, it can be knocked free?


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:49 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:44 pm
Posts: 598
Location: Costa Rica, Central America
Tim S wrote:
We both agree that AR pellets leave almost no lead in the bore, but must leave some, if subsequent pellets scrape some out, correct? Do you mean that these minute traces don't adhere to the bore surface as they do in a smallbore barrel, probably because the lead is pure and the pellet velocity is low?

Bingo! Now we're in sync...

Tim S wrote:
Superior bore finish, low pellet velocity, minimal bearing surface, and an absence of corrosive/erosive residue equal a very low cleaning frequency, but do not prove that pellets remove lead.

Yeah that helps, but what you really want to know is the actual proof that "every pellet down the barrel will scrape out deposits from the pellets shot before.”

Pick up two lead air gun pellets, rub them against each other and tell me if any lead residue falls off.


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:37 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:02 pm
Posts: 139
Rover is surely giggling, at how easily rifle shooters are riled up.


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 Post subject: Re: AR clean bore
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:07 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:47 pm
Posts: 12
Location: The Villages, Fl
I will not shoot the felt pellets through my rifle for 2 reasons.

* When a felt pellet is fired, some of the fibers blow back toward the seal and there may or may not be potential for this to get back toward the regulator. I saw one rifle with a large buildup of felt fibers on the bolt face. Enough to make another felt pellet.
That's just a concern of mine, valid or not.

* That being said, they don't do a thorough cleaning.
I shot about 25,000 pellets through my FWB 800U. I was using felt pellets. Very good scores, but had the occasional flyer.
I started using the VFG cleaning system with the super intensive pellets. This pellet has small brass pieces imbedded in the pellet. They feel just a bit moist. Not enough to leak when compressed.
I initially pulled 1 through breech to muzzle.
The pull was extremely rough. You could both feel the vibrations and hear a groaning / moaning sound coming from the barrel.
You can feel when the pellet is pulling through smoothly and when it hit rough spots from the buildup of whatever the crap is.
It took maybe 6 or 7 pull through with a new pellet every time.
The last pull was extremely uniform and smooth. A visual inspection showed the bore looked like a mirror inside.
I now pull 1 through after every tin of pellets.
My scores have improved slightly also.
Take it or leave it.
I tell my local competitors that if they don't clean their barrel, I will clean their clock.
That is my opinion.
Just like a$$holes, everybody has one, some are bigger than others and they all stink.


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