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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:22 pm 
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Location: Spokane, WA
First, a bit about me. I am 56 years old wear bifocals, have a slight bit of Parkinson's and no longer have the strength to shoot my Diana 75U more than five or six shots before fatigue sets in and I must stop shooting. I am limited to shooting either down my hallway which is only 19 feet, or my garage which is close to 22 feet. Yes I know that is a ridiculously short distance, but due to health issues it's all I am left with.

For the last few months I have been shooting my smaller break barrel springers, (an R7, HW30s, CZ 634 and couple HW50s). So far I have been really enjoying shooting them again, yet I am now yearning for a low power target oriented PCP. I already have a tank and all the filling accessories.

I have perused the web and it appears I have limited choices, please correct me if I am wrong, The two FWB's that appeal to me are the 700 basic and the 500. The dealer pages don't really give too many specifics of either model and leave me with more questions than answers.

A few of my questions center around the differences in sights and how difficult adding a small 4X scope would be. What is the importance of dry fire, and are the triggers different?

So in a nutshell why is one more preferable than the other, and for that matter are there other choices out there I should investigate.


Last edited by ddmann on Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:03 pm 
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I'm not a coach, so please don't take my opinion for any more than it's worth. Not much!

If you get a precision air rifle, be aware (for me atleast) they are not nearly as fun to shoot as a springer. However if you want to shoot more seriously I'd go for whatever FWB you can get. 700/800/800x will all be better then most of us can shoot. Even a Junior or Universal will be good, but you will need to add weights to a Junior.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:19 pm 
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Location: San Diego, CA
Shooting is shooting: go with what you can safely do, and don't let anyone ride you about it!

Between the two rifles you mentioned, I would choose the FWB 700 Basic. You get the 700 action, which is one of the more popular match air rifles in the world, so parts will be available, and people who know how to work on it will also be around.

If you're open to buying new, then you have many, MANY options: FWB 500, 700, 800, with multiple options for stocks; Walther LG300 and LG400, again with multiple stocks available; Anschutz 8001, 8002, 9003, with still MORE stocks to choose from; you get the idea. All of these are available in the US, though not all the dealers advertise online. Generally speaking, the FWB rifles have a history of being more scope-friendly than others, though someone please correct me if that is not the case.

The primary difference among the different rifles (at least with regard to cost), is how much adjustment is present in the stock. The triggers on all of them are going to be excellent, and all highly adjustable for your personal preference, though the triggers will have some specific differences in how they feel from brand to brand. The ergonomics, particularly the balance, also differ from brand to brand, and stock to stock. The sights are all going to be about the same, assuming they come with sights to begin with. There are some differences among the attachment rails used by the different brands; I don't recall all the details, but it's something to be aware of if you're purchasing sights of a different brand than your rifle. For scope mounting, most any 11mm dovetail rings will work; I prefer BKL rings, personally, as they are inexpensive, will work on any maker's rail, and have always held zero without difficulty for me.

A dry fire switch allows you to safely dry fire the air rifle without triggering a release of air. This is especially important in competition, since the definition of a "shot" under ISSF air rifle rules is the release of propellant--whether or not there's a projectile with it, so if you want to dry fire once the match has started, you need to have a way of making sure that no gas is released (at least not from your gun! ;-) ). In addition, frequent dry firing is bad for your rifle's seals, as I recall.

You may want to keep an eye on the classifieds here; air rifles pop up all the time from people who are leaving the sport, upgrading, etc. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49700 is one such example.

Good luck to you!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:40 pm 
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Location: Spokane, WA
Thanks for the quick replies guys. Andre I agree with you that many of my guns are far more accurate than I will ever be! By the same token I believe that occasionally the inherent accuracy of some guns make me a better shooter. I found that when I started with the R7 my accuracy improved with all of my guns. Not sure exactly why, but I believe it is because a springer requires a little more concentration than either CO2 or PCP.

mtncrwu your post was especially helpful as one of my worries was the ability to mount a scope. I know it seems crazy to need a small scope for only 20 feet, but my old bifocaled eyes are in dreadful shape. The weight of the 500 at only 7 pounds versus the 700 basic at nearly 8 1/2 pounds makes it seem like a good choice. This last winter I fell on ice and broke my left wrist thus limiting my ability to support my old 10 meter guns (the 300 is already gone and my 75U will go up this weekend, but it will be awhile until I sell my Annie 220).

I will take a closer look at the Walthers mentioned also. At this point I think I need to keep a close eye on the classifieds or maybe even post a WTB. At this point I do not know the value of either of these guns on the used market.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:05 pm 
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Location: San Diego, CA
Scoping your airgun makes total sense. The point here is to enjoy shooting, and not being able to see what you're aiming at is no fun; hell, the NRA invented an entire new competition rule-set for people who have trouble holding up their gun and seeing iron sights (or just don't want to :-) )! F-Class came about because there was a guy who couldn't use a sling anymore, and couldn't see. So he started using a scope and a rest, other people enjoyed it, too, and things just went from there!

If total weight is a concern, then I would suggest looking for a Junior model. They will start lighter than many of the other options out there, but will have more available adjustments than the FWB 500. Also, I have been informed that, while the older FWBs were fairly easily scoped, the newer ones are less so. Walthers have a loading lever that can swap sides if need be, And the Anschutz lever goes sideways, so they may be better options.

Something else to consider is using a rest like some of the Paralympic shooters use. McKenna Dahl uses one, pictured below. It supports the weight of the gun, without providing additional stability; that's all on you!

Image

Only thing with that is I have no idea where to get one. Bob Foth, National Paralympic Coach, would be an excellent person to ask, though.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:52 pm 
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That rest might be homemade. Some conduit, fittings, a spring, and some mechanical intuition could make one in a weekend.

Shooting a more accurate gun probably taught you on a reward basis, do your part and the gun will do its. With a cheaper gun there might be a little doubt because you know it's not as accurate, and you start to lax.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:22 pm 
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Location: San Diego, CA
It is entirely possible that the rest is homemade; much of the equipment that the IPC shooters use (or that ANY shooter uses, for that matter), is one-off stuff made to the required specs. There are supply pipelines for some of it, though.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:34 pm 
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Location: Spokane, WA
mtncwru I have thought about junior models what worries me is the unknown cost of extending the butt to fit an adult. Maybe it is neither difficult or expensive I honestly have no idea. If older FWB's are easier to scope that might not be such a bad thing. As long as it is a basic model, i.e. lighter in weight like the 500, I would think that a model a generation or so older would be less expensive to purchase also.

Since I broke my wrist I rarely shoot more than about ten shots without taking a break. Occasionally I get excited and shoot for about 20 minutes straight and I pay for it the next three or four days! I have learned just to be patient take a few shots, set the gun down and go work on the computer for around 15 or 20 minutes then go take another few shots. It is a slow process, but I have adjusted to it. It also gives time to consider why sometimes I am more accurate than normal.

Last summer I bought a Crosman 2009 rifle. It seemed to fit all my criteria; lightweight, adjustable cheek and butt, PCP, low velocity. Turns out it was just a bit too light and that crazy cocking bolt and I just did not get along. It did teach me some things to look for in the next rifle. Having an adjustable cheek is a must. While the butt was adjustable both for distance and vertical, it just did not seem to "grab" my shoulder.

I did some looking into Walthers at a couple of websites earlier today and they look a little pricey to me. Although just like with the FWB a model a generation or two older may be an excellent choice.

Is there a website where I could learn about the older models? For that matter are there any websites that would have more detailed explanations of current models. the sites I have visited have insanely sparse information.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:40 pm 
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Older model Feinwerkbau may not be the answer if you want to scope-the P-70's loading gate (at least on the 10 meter versions) is located on the center line of bore and pops up to occupy the same space a scope wants to be mounted. P-70 field target appears to have a shorter length gate allowing mounting of scope.
Side lever rifles should be much happier with scope (e.g. P-700 series)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:42 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:37 am
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Location: Norfolk England
Anschutz and Styer 10m guns both have side swinging cocking levers, so will always be fine to use with a scope. The Walther LG300/400 rifles have side mounted (easily interchangeable sides on the 400) vertically operated cocking levers, which might need modification to work correctly. The FWB P700 onwards is similar to the Walthers. Earlier FWB's including the 600 SSP models have a centrally mounted cocking leaver which will not work with a scope sight.

As far as I am aware all of the rifles come with 11mm rails for rearsight mounting so you will be fine for mounting a scope from that point of view, I too like the BKL rings. It is the size/shape of the foresight mounting dovetail that varies between the manufactures.

The Belgian Spring, as the sprung rests are known as are available commercially, but due to the low numbers sold, are very expensive for what they are. last time I looked in the NSRA shop at the LRC Bisley they were about £150. The really important thing about them is the specification of the spring. This actually varies between the different subcategories of the IPSC SH2 specification. The more upper body strength you have, the bendier the spring has to be.

Alan


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:58 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:50 pm
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Location: San Diego, CA
BigAl wrote:
As far as I am aware all of the rifles come with 11mm rails for rearsight mounting so you will be fine for mounting a scope from that point of view, I too like the BKL rings. It is the size/shape of the foresight mounting dovetail that varies between the manufactures.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=40859&p=199792

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=42735&p=207237

IIRC, the rear sight rail on Walther and Anschutz aren't quite the same, or close enough that sights are (usually) interchangeable. The Walther front sight rail is significantly different, to the point that an Anschutz front sight cannot be used. The Anschutz front sight rail is identical to the Anschutz rear sight rail on anything 19xx and newer, while 18xx and older uses a front sight block instead of a barrel dovetail. I believe FWB has it's own set of rail standards, as well, just to make everything extra complicated.

Fortunately, BKL rings don't seem to care about any of that, and will happily latch onto everything I've tried. We have all three brands of rifle at my club, all of varying ages/vintages, and none of us has ever had an issue using BKLs. I've heard excellent things about B-Square hardware as well, and they make an adapter that will allow your rail to accept Weaver rings. So that should give you some options for scope mounting, depending on how much height you want to get.

I hope that's all sufficiently confusing! :-)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:23 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:51 am
Posts: 22
Location: Spokane, WA
Still looking for the airgun of my dreams. I seem to desire a strange set of requirements. So far I have learned that my three requirements: lightweight, easy to scope, and low velocity never seem to coincide in a rifle. Today I read a post asking questions about the Anschutz 8001. At first glance it seemed to be to good to be true. Low velocity, check. Scope rails, check. Weight 10.4 lbs, crap!

There seems to be quite a few choices if I wanted a lightweight high-power hunting rifle. Egads there are several that are under 7 lbs but they produce near 30 foot-lbs or more of power, yikes!

I have a buddy across the state who is sending me his CZ200 with a target stock to examine for a couple of months. It seems to offer a lot of what I am searching for will know more in a few weeks.

Well the search goes on, I want to thank everyone who adds another bit of information to this thread as I am pretty ignorant when it comes to modern guns.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:22 pm 
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http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Air_Arms_ ... /2171/4381

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Air_Arms_ ... /2281/4570

http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Hammerli_ ... /3349/6437


The FWB 800x series can be scoped, since the loading lever can be repositioned. Aswell as any of the Walther lg400 series rifles (including Anatomic)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:24 am 
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Location: Spokane, WA
Andre I have looked at the pictures offered by more than one dealer of the 800 series and I cannot understand how it would be possible to install a scope on one. That cocking lever is vertical and quite long, (which equals tall when used), if it was horizontal I would agree with you.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:08 pm 
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ddmann wrote:
Andre I have looked at the pictures offered by more than one dealer of the 800 series and I cannot understand how it would be possible to install a scope on one. That cocking lever is vertical and quite long, (which equals tall when used), if it was horizontal I would agree with you.



The adjustable loading lever was one of the big improvements over the 700 series action, and it really simplifies life for most Field Target shooters that use scopes. If you wanted to mount a scope on a P70 or 700 action you'd have to cut the lever (or loading gate on a P70)

http://s14.postimg.org/71e6th1lt/Fwb_800.jpg

http://www.topairgun.com/files/2019619/ ... 01_zm2.jpg

Another FT rig: http://s100.photobucket.com/user/chengl ... a.jpg.html


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:17 am 
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Location: Spokane, WA
So my buddies CZ 200 with a target stock arrived yesterday afternoon. So far I am very impressed. It passes all my criteria: lightweight, low velocity (7 joules whatever that is), and very scopable! This morning I was able to get the cheek adjusted and the butt is close, but I will clearly need to purchase some more spacers to get the trigger pull I like. Have not spent any time with the chrono yet to determine its optimal fill and power curve, but I suspect that will happen in the next few days. I tried a few different pellets through it today (about four fills worth) and found that meisterkuglens seem to work well (which is nice since I have about 15 tins of them). Will have to order a sampling of wadcutters for it tomorrow as I assume there may be other pellets that may work better.

All this leads me to believe that the Air Arms MPR might be a good choice for me, thanks Andre for the links in your post above consider my eyes opened! Although I will have to something with that hideous stock since the 200 arrived the MPR is much more alluring.


I have custody of this gun until either Thanksgiving or Christmas as my buddy is not certain witch holiday he will be able to make it over here for.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:55 am 
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Since it has been so long since my first post I thought I would post an update. All the information I received from my original post proved quite helpful, so thanks a lot folks I really appreciate it.

I no longer have bifocals as of nearly a year ago, that alone improved my shooting tremendously. In my last post I spoke about a buddy of mine lending me his S200 in a target stock to me for a few months. I loved that thing so much I ended up haunting airgun forums listings until I found one for myself. Spent a couple of months learning how to fine tune the trigger to my taste. Experimented with a couple of scopes and even tried the cheesy Avanti sight set for a while. I think it might be possible to configure a sight set somehow to suit my needs, but I will have to research that more. Recently I installed an aeon scope on it and the added weight actually helped me steady my hold a bit. In my mind for a beginner or someone slight of build this might be best choice for starter PCP in existence.

I also kept my eye out for an AA MPR rifle. About ten months ago I found one locally in a gun store that was a traded in for a spendy shotgun. The owner was willing to take payments for a three months until I could pay it off. This thing is like the S200 on steroids! Man what a nice gun! Still have not found the perfect scope for it as my scope requirements are unusual. That said, there is little not to love about this gun. It is not too heavy, easy to cock, sweet trigger (much nicer than the S200), using the spacers I was able to adjust the gun length and comb to my liking, and you can shoot seemingly forever on a fill. I wish I could put a set of sights on this gun but the previous owner epoxied a moderator to the end of the barrel egads man! I am quite pleased with this gun.

Then, three weeks ago, one of my cousins in Colorado visited. Turns out her son's are both shooters and she had an "in" with her local gun store owner. Said she would talk to him about allowing me a discount if I purchased a gun from him. The next day after lunch she had me ring him up. This guy must be the friendliest dude in the universe because we struck a deal in less than 5 minutes. And I became the owner of an FWB 800 Junior.

Been shooting it for about a week and a half now, and am blown away! I forget who was the first to recommend that gun to me and I pooh poohed it because of the cost. Let me tell you, it is worth every penny. Still playing with the comb and stock adjustments because they are so adjustable I keep fiddling with them. Not sure what its preferred pellet is yet, although it seems to happy with the inexpensive basics I have been using so far.

Getting used to a sight set has been a bit difficult for me. I have seen some accessories (eagle eyes, magnified irise's, etc) to modify the basic sight set and i need to learn more about them. I will likely post a new thread on that since I am completely ignorant on the matter.

Anyway, that's my update, thanks a ton to everyone who offered advice and took an interest. The path to the FWB took two years, but I learned a lot, learning still more, had a ton of fun, (8 gr at a time), and looking forward to more of all of it.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Location: San Diego, CA
Thanks for the update! Glad to hear you are still having a great time, and have come into the gun you love!


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