TargetTalk

A forum to talk about Olympic style shooting, rifle or pistol, 10 meters to 50 meters, and whatever is in between. Hosted by Pilkguns.com
It is currently Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:23 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:34 pm
Posts: 7
I was wondering what would make a good cheap biathlon rifle alernative. I don't want to spend $3000 for a rifle, nor do I want to spend $1000. I've read the Marlin 2000 makes a good alternative, but those are hard to come by. What's the cheapest alternative that would be legal to use in a race. I may only do two to three races over the winter so don't see the point in spending more then $500. What makes a legal rifle and pro's and cons to the more expensive rifles over something else. Thanks in advance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:24 pm
Posts: 23
Location: Iowa
Savage target model that ESA uses as a basis for their rifles. You're going to have to figure out how to mount a harness and carry extra mags, but you're going to have to do that with any non specific biathlon rifle anyway.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 297
Location: San Diego, CA
Doesn't someone make a rifle with a bolt that pulls back only and doesn't need to be lifted?

Joel


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:49 pm
Posts: 5164
Location: Ruislip, UK
joel wrote:
Doesn't someone make a rifle with a bolt that pulls back only and doesn't need to be lifted?


Yep, Anschutz


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 297
Location: San Diego, CA
I don't mean a Fortner type bolt, but a cheaper repeating rifle with a short straight throw. I thought that it might be a good base for a biathlon rifle on the more affordable side.

Joel


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:23 am
Posts: 251
Location: Colorado
Yes, the Browning T-Bolt is a straight pull action. Don't think you will get into one for under $500 though. Gunsamerica shows several starting at $629. An occasional used one is out there for $495, but will not have a set of sights ready for Biathlon. The sights and the machine work to install them would easily set you back another few hundred dollars.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:34 pm
Posts: 7
so my local gunshop has that same rifle shown in the picture above. are those actually snow sights that are installed? i did notice they don't have the flip up cover that goes over the barrel and sights. they've got a great price on it so just wondering what other mods for straps and spare magazine holders. can one just carry extra magazines in a pouch or fanny pack or maybe velcro's in a pouch on the stock or something? would the below picture also make a good rifle and could the snow sights be put on these, minus the scope? i checked one of those out and really felt pretty comfortable. i'm basically looking at getting back into shooting rifles again after many many years away and may even think about getting into competition outside of biathlon.

Attachment:
download.png
download.png [ 88.57 KiB | Viewed 4156 times ]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:24 pm
Posts: 23
Location: Iowa
Those Savage sights are not snow sights, but a decent peep and globe sight you can start out with. ESA offers a snow sight kit to retrofit the rifle for about $250?

http://www.easternsierraarmory.com/blog/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:34 pm
Posts: 7
I know the snow sights have the flip up covers, but other then that what makes them "snow sights?"

Rich


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:24 pm
Posts: 23
Location: Iowa
Nothing. The rear sight ESA uses might be a little higher quality and it has a blinder option. Not that you couldn't fit some kind of blinder to the Savage sights. I believe they are the basic Williams sights? But don't take my word on everything, I'm certainly not an expert in biathlon, but I do have an ESA rifle.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:30 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Utah
joel wrote:
Doesn't someone make a rifle with a bolt that pulls back only and doesn't need to be lifted?

Joel


Primary Weapons Systems (PWS) T3 is another 22lr that meets this description, but over $500 and not easily adapted to biathlon needs. Considering that you are going to do just a few races it might make sense to join a club, if there is one in your area, and see about the possibility of using a loaner or club rifle for the events you want to enter.

Curtis


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:24 pm
Posts: 23
Location: Iowa
That PWS rifle is very interesting. I'm assuming the straight pull bolt, reduces the 10/22 to bolt action only? This company looks very innovative and based on the price of the complete T3 rifle, they could easily make a biathlon compatible rifle for under a grand. You would have to use the bull barrel to bring the overall weight of the rifle up and the stock would have to be redesigned to allow fitment of a harness and sling and palm rest. Easy things to do for a company already making their own custom stocks. Also the top of receiver machined for peep sights and no rail.

That magazine release is really trick too. The only glitch I see is trying to incorporate some kind of a mag holder for the rotary mags? And there could be some rule I'm missing that wouldn't allow this rifle anyway? I'm sure with the extremely small demand for a real biathlon rifle, it's not worth the company's time to try and develop one.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:30 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Utah
PWS T3 is bolt action only. Not convertible to semi-auto. It uses the 1022 style receiver shell and barrels mount the same as a semi-auto 1022 receiver. Kidd Innovations makes a nice two stage trigger that mates to the T3 receiver. An AirForce rear sight mounts to the rail using a 1" scope ring There is a plethora of barrel options out there. Difficulties include getting setup with a front sight, the ejection port is small which makes it difficult to load single rounds, and as you pointed out, storing the wider magazines, though I think it would possible to store them in the butt of a biathlon style stock designed to accept them. They may be to wide to be stored in the forend of a stock.

Curtis


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:34 pm
Posts: 7
So I was at Cabelas and found a really nice stock for the Ruger 10/22, but everything I've seen is that it is semi-auto. Do they make a 10/22 in a bolt action? Yes, I really don't want to spend a whole lot of money since I will only have time to do only a handful of races at this point if I do any. I'd more or less like to get a rifle to double as something I could take to any range and just do some target shooting while having my own rifle to use at the biathlon races.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:30 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Utah
All Ruger 1022's are semi auto unless you remove the receiver and replace with the PWS T3 Summit receiver.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 7:31 am
Posts: 30
Location: SE Michigan
I seem to remember the Russians making a fairly cheap Biathlon trainer, with a toggle bolt. I seem to remember European American Armory (EAA) importing it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:23 pm
Posts: 37
Location: MA
NuJudge wrote:
I seem to remember the Russians making a fairly cheap Biathlon trainer, with a toggle bolt. I seem to remember European American Armory (EAA) importing it.


Those would be the Izhmash 7-2, 7-3 and 7-4. The company currently importing them was able to get some 7-2s and they list on GB for around $1000. A few years ago, 7-2s could be had for under $300. I don't think that you will see any 7-3 or 7-4s coming into the States for a a while. I know that Larson is able to get them in Europe and a few places in Canada are buying them direct from Larsen instead of Izhmash.

Honestly though, if you are new to biathlon you can't go wrong with the Savage and just leaving the rifle on a rack for a beginner's race. Your money is better spent on learning better ski equipment and ski lessons.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:09 am
Posts: 2
Has anyone looked further into using the PWS T3 for biathlon?

Can someone share a list of opinions on the minimum modifications that would be needed to make it race ready?
- magazine storage on stock
- front and rear sights w/snow cover
- handstop, sling, harness, cuff, rifle cover, blinder, etc.

What would the biggest difficulties be? Stock? Sights? Cold weather?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:30 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Utah
Sveinn wrote:
Has anyone looked further into using the PWS T3 for biathlon?

Can someone share a list of opinions on the minimum modifications that would be needed to make it race ready?
- magazine storage on stock
- front and rear sights w/snow cover
- handstop, sling, harness, cuff, rifle cover, blinder, etc.

What would the biggest difficulties be? Stock? Sights? Cold weather?


I built a rifle based on the PWS T3 action not the complete PWS T3 Summit rifle. I made the stock. The magazines are stored in the butt of the stock using magnets to hold them in place. I added Mag Bumpers from Tandemkross to the magzines which made it easier to handle them. For the foresight I used a 22mm Centra with a barrel band adapter from Shootingsport in Germany. I fashioned a crude snow cover from some aluminum flat stock from Home Depot. For the rear sight I used the AirForce sight (same one that Clayton Mendel uses on the Savages he sells (Eastern Sierra Armory). The sight is mounted to the picatinny rail of the action using a 1" scope mount. Snow cover is a 1" Butler Creek flip up lense cover.

Trigger group is a Kidd Innovations 2 stage. The Kidd trigger is fully adjustable and a true piece of craftsmanship. Green Mountain running boar style stainless steel barrel was chosen. It seems to shoot well in the cold though as warm as this winter has been in my neck of the woods I can't say that it has been truely evaluated under very cold conditions. Marc Sheppard of Altius indicated to me that the PWS barrel (don't know which one) didn't shoot well in the cold. There are many barrels to chose from for the 1022 so finding one that works in the cold is a non issue. I made the handstop, sling, and cuff. The harness was purchased from Nikkonos on Ebay. For the money I would buy the Altius harness if I was doing this again. Blinder is a cheap Gehmann one, mounted in front of a Gehmann 510 iris which is mounted on a 25mm extension tube.
I'm away from home and will be for another few weeks or I'd post some photos of the rifle. If there is interest in seeing the rifle let me know and when I have a chance I'll snap some photos.

Biggest issues I've encountered have been with the action. Initially it wouldn't extract spent cases very well. It eventually got to 100% failure to extract after only 60 rounds fired. Sent the complete rifle to PWS. They fixed the failure to extract issue. Now I have failure to eject issues about 20% of the time or more. Another problem is that it is very difficult to load single rounds through the small ejection port. For my hands it requires removing my glove to be able to accomplish this at all. I will see if PWS can fix the failure to eject issue, but I expect a lot more from an action that costs almost $400. If it can't be fixed I will part the rifle out though I really would hate to sell the Kidd trigger. It is really nice. After using the rifle in 3 events and dealing with these issues I bit the bullet and purchased an Anschutz 1827F. The only problem with the 1827F is the "nut" behind the trigger being out of adjustment.

Expense wise I probably have about $1200 in the rifle. I would not go this route again, though it was a fun exercise and always stirs up interest when others see the rifle. For someone looking for a cheap biathlon rifle ( that's an oxymoron, more accurate would be a less expensive biathlon rifle ) I would recommended getting on Clayton's waiting list. Alternatively start checking the classified ads for the different biathlon clubs around the US. Some folks will be selling their rifles this spring. I got an email from Marc Sheppard at Altius yesterday. He has 1827Fs in stock and has dropped the price from what he was charging last fall due to the current Euro/Dollar exchange rate. This is truely one of those "buy once cry once" situations. Spend the money up front for an 1827F and it will probably be the last biathlon rifle you buy. If you don't stick with the sport then you can sell the rifle and get most of your investment back. Laurie Humbert competed in the Lillehammer Olympics for the US in 1994. Maddie Phaneuf of the current US team is competing with Laurie's rifle today, 20 years later.

CJ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:09 am
Posts: 2
Krenovian - Thanks for sharing! That's about the most thorough reply I've ever seen on a forum. If you do have a photo to share I would love to see it.

It's too bad that you have had issues with the PWS. The biathlon straight pull and the price of the complete rifle had me hopeful that it could be a build-up option that could be on par with EAS or even Izhmash.

I'm not to the "buying a Anschutz" stage of commitment to the sport yet but I had a great time this season. I'll keep checking around the classifieds.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group