TargetTalk

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:55 pm 
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I've only been doing this sport for about 50 years, so I've still got a lot to learn. I'm looking for some clarification. Except in just a couple of tournaments recently, AFTER the first 5 shot string in Timed/Rapid, and all shooting has completed for that string, and any alibis settled, the targets always have then 'faced' for review, UNTIL the next Load command is given for the 2nd 5 shot series, when they are edged. I was recently told this was a wrong protocol/sequence, and that the targets should remained "edged" until they face for the second 5 shot series timing.
Also, on some ranges, they keep the targets 'edged' even after the full 10 shots fired. This is done in order to discourage shooters from looking their shots, taking up too much time.
I was rather annoyed, as it would have been nice to see if any sighting change could have been necessary between strings.

Is this a 'local range' rule/procedure, or are there actual rules governing this sequence? I didn't see anything in the official NRA rules.

Comments??
Thanks in advance for your civility....


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:42 pm 
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Location: Hamilton Square NJ
They are supposed to remain edged between strings and faced for scoring after any refire strings are completed. There are some range alibi situations where the targets are to remain edged, but those are fairly rare.

I've found that shooters BSing instead of scoring is the biggest time waster. No matter how slow I move while scoring, I'll get back to the line and there are still ten or twelve people downrange agonizing over scoring. "Is that a six or a seven?"

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in beautiful, gun friendly New Jersey


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:33 pm 
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Location: Haymarket, VA
Every range i have been to the target has been edged after every string. After all strings have been fired including alibis... they are faced, line is made safe, then we go down and score. After the first timed fire string i peek in the scope and check my zero. I stay out of the scope for that caliber match. I found my self rushing my strings so i had enough time to peek in the scope.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:20 pm 
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Location: Wyoming
Hummm, if I recall correctly they dont do this at Perry. It would be good if they did, because when you have a range alabi to treat people fairly, it is sort of important that they dont get to look at their target before they decide whether they want to take a refire or not. Keeping them edged between strings is the smarter strategy.

My biggest beef with the targets is that most ranges dont set their timers correctly. Bullseye targets are supposed to turn fairly slowly and take a full second to face, and another full second to edge. When they whip around in a half second or less, as they do at some ranges, they are really cheating you in rapid fire of a full second or more of shooting time.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:41 am 
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Are edge to face time specs in print somewhere?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:35 am 
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The only rule I have seen and is what the referee looks at is the time the targets are fully faced .

This time is measured from when the target is fully faced to the shooter to the time it starts to turn away.

I have never heard or seen anything on the length of time it takes the target to turn, either to face or to edge.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:01 am 
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The targets should remain edged between all strings and until all issues are addressed, if possible (more on this below). Inadvertent facing of the targets before the range is cleared for normal scoring can create problems and actually create conditions wherein options are removed from the shooter. (see below)

Perry and all major matches I've ever been to DO NOT face after the first 5 shot string unless there is a range problem or inadvertent operation.

If the targets face after the first 5 shot string, there will be a problem when a less than required time "range alibi" occurs.
In this type of "range alibi" situation the shooter supposed to be provided with the opportunity to make a decision on taking a refire string or not to take a refire when less than the required time is presented. For example, in time fire (20 seconds) the range control malfunctions and turns in 10 or 15 or even 19 seconds. This is a "range alibi" just like allowing too much time (which has different option, see below).

When too little time is allowed, the shooters have the option, without viewing the targets, to accept the rounds as fired or take the range alibi refire string. If the targets are faced during corrections or after the malfunction (allowing some shooters to see their targets), generally a complete refire is called and shooters do not get a choice. (Therefore the facing of the targets so the shooters can see them actually removes an option from the shooter that would be interpreted from the rules. Please read the rules and description of range alibis and operations.)

9.12 Interruption of Fire -
(a) In timed or rapid fire when the firing of a string is interrupted
by some occurrence which renders it impossible
for one or more competitors to complete the string under
the conditions of the match, the Chief Range Officer will
proceed as follows. Without being permitted to examine
their targets
, competitors in the relay who have been so
prevented from completing their strings will be asked if
they wish to refire or to accept their score as fired. Targets
will then be scored in the usual manner for all competitors
except those who have elected to refire. Without being
scored, the targets of such competitors who have elected
to refire will be pasted or new targets substituted and a
complete string will be fi red and scored.

Situations where longer than the required time is provided is also a range alibi, but the shooters do not get a choice. Everyone is supposed to refire.

9.12 (b) In timed or rapid fire when, due to faulty target operation
or error in timing, one or more competitors are
allowed more time to complete the string than provided
by conditions of the match, the Chief Range
Officer will immediately order all such targets pasted
or new targets installed. The fired target will not
be scored. A complete new string will then be fired
by the competitors who are allowed extra time.
If in
the same relay some targets operate properly in accordance
with the legal time limit, such targets will
be scored in the usual manner and competitors firing
on those targets will not be required or permitted to
refire.



There are some other situations, especially on split ranges (like Perry) when there may be two different types of range alibis on either side of the range. That really gets interesting.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:16 pm 
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Interesting comments. I didn't want to get into SPEED of target turning, or FACE time.
I was certainly referring to NON-Alibi situations. Obviously (or not to some) until an Alibi situation-whether shooter or range- would have to be resolved before the targets could be FACED, regardless if it's the 1st or 2nd string. I say obviously, because that's what i have always experienced, and makes most sense.
So, am i hearing (alibi not included), targets must remained edged after the 1st string under all conditions, except for firing time, and until the completion of the 2nd string?
Seriously, never had that condition until just recently. The ONLY excuse that they gave to me was to "keep the pace of the match going." That is nonsense, frankly. The Range Officer simply has to give the commands, and the shooters must be ready to proceed. R.O. is in charge - or perhaps some aren't.....

As an aside, I've always considered the Precision (formerly 3-gun) competitions a race. Quick...Shoot 10 shots, hurry change targets, hurry shoot next string, change targets....and so on. Not necessarily a competition of "precision" shooting. Lets get 3 rounds of 90 shots done as quickly as we can....

OK--- I've got my asbestos shield on...


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
Posts: 1345
Location: Wyoming
"As an aside, I've always considered the Precision (formerly 3-gun) competitions a race. Quick...Shoot 10 shots, hurry change targets, hurry shoot next string, change targets....and so on. Not necessarily a competition of "precision" shooting. Lets get 3 rounds of 90 shots done as quickly as we can...."



If you come to Bullseye from the soul sucking paint drying death march that is Olympic precision shooting, I can understand why you feel that way.

When I started Bullseye matches felt a bit rushed to me. It was because I didnt have the routine down for arranging my gear, loading my magazines, scoring, target repair etc.

It can also feel a bit rushed when the match director knows he has to finish an entire 2700 by 1500 in order to not deal with the wind coming up or an afternoon hailstorm the way it does in eastern Colorado.

However, now it feels slow. Im a pretty quick scorer, so I have usually have time to spare, and end up playing with my phone between targets. Eapecially at indoor matches. Outdoors I am usually drinking water.


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