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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:36 pm 
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I've been back into shooting only two years now after over a decade away. I quickly gravitated back to shooting bullseye as it was always one of my favorite disciplines. I'm not competing yet...still a bit gun shy (Ha!). After two years I seem to be able to keep the vast majority of shots in the black at 25 yards on a B8 target. I recently shot a 20 yard target (the bay I was in only went that far) where I shot 100 shots into the same target and had only three wander into the 8 ring, with a large hole just above the X (well, on the sideways picture - sorry - it seems to be to the right of the X but I did not hang it that way when I made those holes). This is all slow-fire BTW. Mostly I've been pretty pleased with my progress there. Need to ramp up to some faster shooting. In contrast, with the 10M airgun (46M) I'm getting far less consistent results and more flyers wandering... one, and sometimes two rings outside the black. I can usually rope them in after a longer session with the pistols (final target or two may keep 9/10 in the black), but I find it more challenging and feel less confident than on the range with my .22's. My thoughts are that my 46M may not be fitting me right, or perhaps is balanced differently than my .22 pistols....its certainly larger, though not heavier. It has a good trigger (Pyramid Air) and I recently swapped the grip out to some really nice target grips that fit like a glove. I still find myself wandering more, and being less confident with the AP. I know I'm looking to the tools now to blame instead of the person behind them. So my question is, are the two disciplines so different that I need to change technique and or expectations when going between one and the other? My assumption would have been that I'd be doing better with the airgun given the total lack of recoil and relatively quiet (hey, while the newbie has your ear...why do competitors wear ear protection at airgun matches? Am i missing something?). I'm not sure if the black in an B8 at 25 yards is the same ratio as the black in a standard AP 10m target. But still, I feel more than just a notch better with the .22 so I need some attitude adjustment and maybe some coaching. Any words of wisdom to share?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:00 pm 
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If you scaled an air pistol target up for use at 25 yards, the black (7 Ring) would be 5.35" diameter, just very slightly smaller than a B8 5 1/2" Black (9 ring). Obviously the scores would be much much higher on the B8 as only the 9 and 10 rings are black, but 7-10 are black on the air pistol target. However, if you are shooting the B8 target at 20 yards instead of 25, an air pistol target scaled for 20 yards would only be about 4 1/4" diameter black, clearly smaller than the black on the B8. That may explain why you have more shots in the white on an air pistol target. On the other hand, air pistol pellets are a lot slower than a .22 getting out of the barrel, so if your follow through is not good, you would see "thrown" shots farther out on an air pistol target than you would on the B8.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:33 pm 
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dschaller wrote:
If you scaled an air pistol target up for use at 25 yards, the black (7 Ring) would be 5.35" diameter, just very slightly smaller than a B8 5 1/2" Black (9 ring). Obviously the scores would be much much higher on the B8 as only the 9 and 10 rings are black, but 7-10 are black on the air pistol target. However, if you are shooting the B8 target at 20 yards instead of 25, an air pistol target scaled for 20 yards would only be about 4 1/4" diameter black, clearly smaller than the black on the B8. That may explain why you have more shots in the white on an air pistol target. On the other hand, air pistol pellets are a lot slower than a .22 getting out of the barrel, so if your follow through is not good, you would see "thrown" shots farther out on an air pistol target than you would on the B8.


Many thanks - that is all very helpful and makes perfect sense. I will pay attention to my follow through with the AP. I wonder if I have a tendency to be sloppy because it's a single shot. With the .22 (5 or 10 shots) I'm always holding on target for the next shot. The target I shared was wit a 5" barrel FWIW.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:55 pm 
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I seem to have the reverse happening. I can fairly consistently break 90 with my LP 10 at 10m but I rarely break 90 on a B8 at 25 yards with my .22 GSP. I'm still trying to figure out what is happening.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:57 pm 
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paulmcallister wrote:
I seem to have the reverse happening. I can fairly consistently break 90 with my LP 10 at 10m but I rarely break 90 on a B8 at 25 yards with my .22 GSP. I'm still trying to figure out what is happening.


Have you tried SCATT to see if it's a flinch or something?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:12 am 
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My guess is the difference in trigger weight. With the LP 10 I find that I can unconsciously let the shot release, I'm almost surprised when it happens. Not so much with the Walther. I just need to keep dry firing the Walther until I get to the same place.

I've been trying to translate the air pistol discipline to the Walther but my .22 scores have dropped. I'm hoping that it's because I'm cleaning up bad trigger control habits. Time will tell.

If I can clean up my slow fire act I could probably do okay. I mostly shoot 98's to 100's in timed, rapid fire but the mid 80's on timed. It's a rare event to break 280 in competition.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:31 am 
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Chia wrote:
paulmcallister wrote:
I seem to have the reverse happening. I can fairly consistently break 90 with my LP 10 at 10m but I rarely break 90 on a B8 at 25 yards with my .22 GSP. I'm still trying to figure out what is happening.


Have you tried SCATT to see if it's a flinch or something?


I've never tried SCATT or any similar system. I'm pretty amazed at how much difference making physical changes to the pistol makes in my targets. I've been having a hell of a time getting my GSP to fit me so I'm consistently shooting well with it, whereas my Model 41 is like a well broken in pair of slippers to me and I can score predictably good and better and more consistent than my GSP. It's not the guns...both are far better than I am.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:56 pm 
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How do the grips fit you? Are they the same style or different?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:58 pm 
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Chia wrote:
How do the grips fit you? Are they the same style or different?



Sorry that I missed your question. The Grips on all are target grips, but all are different makes and fit slightly different. I definitely shoot the best with the pistol where the grips fit like comfortable slippers, and the worst with the pistol where I have not found a comfortable adjustment for grip and trigger. All are relatively the same size but being of different makes, fit me differently. FWIW the grips I am most comfortable with are Vitarbo and the one I'm having a challenging time finding my groove with are Rink. The AP has target grips by Steve Corcoran which do fit me well, and I do feel comfortable with.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Fair warning, this is advice from a newbie (I just proudly scored a 473 on an Aces Postal CMP competition...first scored match ever.), but I got this trick from a fella who can shoot a hell of a lot better than me (recently scored 370/400), and it works beautifully. I think it might solve a few people's issues in this thread.

I went back and reread the posts carefully and noticed something:

Quote:
In contrast, with the 10M airgun (46M) I'm getting far less consistent results and more flyers wandering... one, and sometimes two rings outside the black. I can usually rope them in after a longer session with the pistols (final target or two may keep 9/10 in the black), but I find it more challenging and feel less confident than on the range with my .22's


Another poster stated that:
Quote:
I seem to have the reverse happening. I can fairly consistently break 90 with my LP 10 at 10m but I rarely break 90 on a B8 at 25 yards with my .22 GSP. I'm still trying to figure out what is happening.


This may seem to not make sense. People are getting different results with the different guns. I don't think that this is a technique issue, I think that this is a "how you hold THAT gun" issue. Your basic technique is likely very sound, but your ability to successfully interface with the other gun is not for some reason. It can be reinforced and become a psychological issue with enough repetition. If that happens, you will have to create new shooting habits with the new pistol to achieve your desired accuracy.

Question: are you getting fatigued when firing with one gun and not the other? If so, you may not have found your horizontal natural point of aim with THAT pistol. Each pistol will have a slightly different NPA because they have different grips. Here's an extreme example of this: 1911 slab grips versus a Steyr LP10 grip. If you hold your arm in exactly the same place with both guns, one is going to suck to shoot with. The sights might align the same, but a different grip will give you a different hand position and gun angle. Pulling back to the wider picture, a different gun angle in your same shooting stance will result in a more uncomfortable shooting process that generates muscle fatigue as you use the gun in a way that strains your body. It also makes shots more inconsistent.

If you think this might be what's occuring, try placing a sheet of white paper on the wall and aiming straight at the sheet of paper with your IZH in your normal stance. Note its location. Then, close your eyes and lower the pistol. Without opening your eyes, slowly raise and lower the pistol again two or three times. Then open your eyes. If the sights have moved horizontally (don't worry so much about the vertical, that's controlled by sight picture), adjust your body in that direction. That is where your body naturally wants to point the gun. Go with it rather than against it. This will assist with the consistency, as your muscles will not work as hard to achieve the same results.

I hope that you score many tens! Keep up the fantastic work!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Chia wrote:
Fair warning, this is advice from a newbie (I just proudly scored a 473 on an Aces Postal CMP competition...first scored match ever.), but I got this trick from a fella who can shoot a hell of a lot better than me (recently scored 370/400), and it works beautifully. I think it might solve a few people's issues in this thread.

I went back and reread the posts carefully and noticed something:

Quote:
In contrast, with the 10M airgun (46M) I'm getting far less consistent results and more flyers wandering... one, and sometimes two rings outside the black. I can usually rope them in after a longer session with the pistols (final target or two may keep 9/10 in the black), but I find it more challenging and feel less confident than on the range with my .22's


Another poster stated that:
Quote:
I seem to have the reverse happening. I can fairly consistently break 90 with my LP 10 at 10m but I rarely break 90 on a B8 at 25 yards with my .22 GSP. I'm still trying to figure out what is happening.


This may seem to not make sense. People are getting different results with the different guns. I don't think that this is a technique issue, I think that this is a "how you hold THAT gun" issue. Your basic technique is likely very sound, but your ability to successfully interface with the other gun is not for some reason. It can be reinforced and become a psychological issue with enough repetition. If that happens, you will have to create new shooting habits with the new pistol to achieve your desired accuracy.

Question: are you getting fatigued when firing with one gun and not the other? If so, you may not have found your horizontal natural point of aim with THAT pistol. Each pistol will have a slightly different NPA because they have different grips. Here's an extreme example of this: 1911 slab grips versus a Steyr LP10 grip. If you hold your arm in exactly the same place with both guns, one is going to suck to shoot with. The sights might align the same, but a different grip will give you a different hand position and gun angle. Pulling back to the wider picture, a different gun angle in your same shooting stance will result in a more uncomfortable shooting process that generates muscle fatigue as you use the gun in a way that strains your body. It also makes shots more inconsistent.

If you think this might be what's occuring, try placing a sheet of white paper on the wall and aiming straight at the sheet of paper with your IZH in your normal stance. Note its location. Then, close your eyes and lower the pistol. Without opening your eyes, slowly raise and lower the pistol again two or three times. Then open your eyes. If the sights have moved horizontally (don't worry so much about the vertical, that's controlled by sight picture), adjust your body in that direction. That is where your body naturally wants to point the gun. Go with it rather than against it. This will assist with the consistency, as your muscles will not work as hard to achieve the same results.

I hope that you score many tens! Keep up the fantastic work!


Thanks for the helpful suggestions, Chia. My grips ARE all similar yet quite different and I think you are right in pointing at that variable as part of the issue. I'm still battling that with my GSP, where I went from the stock grips to Rink bullseye style grip (with the upswept shelf I prefer on my 41). One thing I have noticed, even before your suggestion about paper on the wall...with each of the grips I do find that I have to cant my wrist slightly different to get a good sight line, whether I'm using open sights or red dot. The most natural of the pistols I have just falls right into line and when I raise my hand, there it is...I'm looking right down the sights. With both .22's which are both red dot sights, I find that almost never happens. With both I'm having to cant my wrist upward to get the dot in view. I'd infer from that that the angle of both those grips points the pistol slightly down in my hands if I am to raise it naturally. Between the two .22 pistols, as I mentioned, I'm most comfortable with the Vitarbo grip on the Model 41, and I shoot best by far with that pistol. The Rink on the GSP is far more snug without being uncomfortable...more like a firm handshake. I've been playing with both the shelf adjustment and the trigger to try to reign my scores in, but I still have way too many fliers then with the Model 41. I feel like the point of release on the trigger is awkward...too far in. I've tried bringing the trigger out as far as it can be adjusted but I'm still not staying in the black all the time. I guess I could try adding a bit of dimension to the grip to pull my trigger finger back a bit more.

As far as the AP, I have found that paying more attention to follow through has helped. I also bought an LP2 and that pistol is the one that I raise up and the sights just fall right in line. I still have a long way to go with the AP though...my .22 scores are much better. I will say the trigger on the LP2 is the best I've shot with...its like a ghost...an effortless surprise every time, yet somehow very controllable. Still, my scores are not reflecting an improvement. More practice.

Thanks for the encouraging words and suggestions.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:50 pm 
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I think I've improved a bit with some of the advise here. I've been paying close attention to my follow-up and that seems to have helped. Just shot six AP targets at 10M for a 496. I think I got one flyer in the white, but all else in black. Nothing to write home about, but an improvement from a month or two ago, and there was a marked improvement in scores from target 1 to target 6. I'm still better with my Model 41 at 25 yards, but that's with a red dot. More practice.

Someone asked about fatigue...no, that doesn't seem to bother me, at least in the casual practice sessions that I tend to do, some of which can go a couple of hours at the range. No fatigue at all with the much lighter AP. Mental fatigue is fairly similar with both. A 60 shot string with AP is no problem at all. With standard pistol I can usually tell after about 200 rounds that I'm not as sharp as when I began. Since I use pretty heavy pistols with RedDots that may contribute to the physical difference.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:41 pm 
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jaxontarget wrote:
I think I've improved a bit with some of the advise here. I've been paying close attention to my follow-up and that seems to have helped. Just shot six AP targets at 10M for a 496. I think I got one flyer in the white, but all else in black. Nothing to write home about, but an improvement from a month or two ago, and there was a marked improvement in scores from target 1 to target 6. I'm still better with my Model 41 at 25 yards, but that's with a red dot. More practice.

Someone asked about fatigue...no, that doesn't seem to bother me, at least in the casual practice sessions that I tend to do, some of which can go a couple of hours at the range. No fatigue at all with the much lighter AP. Mental fatigue is fairly similar with both. A 60 shot string with AP is no problem at all. With standard pistol I can usually tell after about 200 rounds that I'm not as sharp as when I began. Since I use pretty heavy pistols with RedDots that may contribute to the physical difference.



So as a comparison to my basement AP session which wwas all slow-fire with open sights, scoring an unremarkable 496 .... at the range today I did a timed session using an app on my phone with an earbud ("Bullseye Range Commands" - basically just an audible timer for the three segments of the course of fire)...so shot 60 shots as in a match (20 slow, 20 timed and 20 rapid), but obviously without the pressures of actually being in a match. For that I used a red dot and B8 targets at 25 yards. I managed a 560. Apples to oranges....or? I feel like I have allot of room for improvement in AP, while the standard pistol seems to feel like I have developed some kind of skill. I can't say whether it is just the red dot that's making the difference, since my vision leaves something to be desired. I do struggle with the open sights, especially when they are black on black. I gave up on target sights on my standard pistol practice. Though I do fine with defensive weapons with night sights at shorter distances, I am crap with target sights at long distance....I mean, 'don't quit your day job' kind of crap....quit wasting your money on ammo kind of crap. Being used to doing pretty OK with a pistol I keep having to ask myself what the heck is going on whenever I've tried iron sights at distance. With the AP, I seem to do OK...but then the distance is shorter and the sight radius is longer.

Thanks again for the input.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:51 pm 
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I don't think chatting is gonna solve this one.

Fully separate the two in your mind. Start focusing on getting better at AP if you want to improve it. Recognize that it's a separate sport with separate requirements.

One last question: do you own the MEC Olympic Pistol book or something similar that focuses on AP?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:32 am 
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Chia wrote:
I don't think chatting is gonna solve this one.

Fully separate the two in your mind. Start focusing on getting better at AP if you want to improve it. Recognize that it's a separate sport with separate requirements.

One last question: do you own the MEC Olympic Pistol book or something similar that focuses on AP?


Well, chatting has given me some good insight and suggestions to pay attention to.

No, I don't have that one. I've been reading Pistol Shooters Treasury, and also have Competitive Pistol Shooting (Antal) on deck. They're both focused more on Standard Pistol.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:00 pm 
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To be honest, I'm out of my depth now. You may wish to employ a coach. Anything from me from here on out is speculation.

I'm guessing that maybe it's something to do with bullseye techniques that do not translate perfectly to AP (I've noticed that the AMU manual has images of a six o'clock rather than a sub-six, and the bullseye grip is obviously designed compensate for recoil. The shot process is different too), and, given that the ten ring in AP is smaller than a penny in diameter and 33 feet away, the habits may add up into an aiming process that is not as reliable as another one might be. I've seen the B-8. It's fairly big in comparison. But without being able to watch you shoot I can't really tell you what's going on.

It may also be that the techniques you are using are dated. Let me run down my shot routine and see if it matches what you do:

1. Assume stance where your horizontal natural point of alignment is the most comfortable. Ensure that your pistol is bisecting the target when raised.
2. Adjust grip and stance to ensure alignments of arm, body, legs, and head as well as various inner tensions. Keep focusing on balancing these as the rest of the process completes.
3. Pistol in ready position. Breathe.
4. Raise pistol approximately 30cm over target. Begin lowering. At top of target, take small breath and enter into neutral breath state. Ensure horizontal alignment of sights at this time (they WILL be out of alignment vertically).
5. "Touch down" in a place where the signts are perfectly aligned and the distance between the rear and front sights is symmetrical to the distance between the top of the sights and the target. Front sight is in the only part of the picture focus.
6. Gently increase trigger pressure until shot breaks. Take mental snapshot of what your sights looked like when the shot broke. Use it to call the shot and where it hit.
7. Release, breathe normally. Compare shot call to actual location. If necessary, adjust appropriately.

If, at anytime, something feels wrong, you abort. You can never take back a bad shot.

Although I just articulated all of this, it's automatic during the shot process. No thinking or other distractors allowed.

I hope this helps, but again, I'm out of my depth at this point. I don't have enough information and I don't know what information to look for to determine what's causing the issue. It could be mechanical or psychological.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:47 pm 
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Chia wrote:
To be honest, I'm out of my depth now. You may wish to employ a coach. Anything from me from here on out is speculation.

I'm guessing that maybe it's something to do with bullseye techniques that do not translate perfectly to AP (I've noticed that the AMU manual has images of a six o'clock rather than a sub-six, and the bullseye grip is obviously designed compensate for recoil. The shot process is different too), and, given that the ten ring in AP is smaller than a penny in diameter and 33 feet away, the habits may add up into an aiming process that is not as reliable as another one might be. I've seen the B-8. It's fairly big in comparison. But without being able to watch you shoot I can't really tell you what's going on.

It may also be that the techniques you are using are dated. Let me run down my shot routine and see if it matches what you do:

1. Assume stance where your horizontal natural point of alignment is the most comfortable. Ensure that your pistol is bisecting the target when raised.
2. Adjust grip and stance to ensure alignments of arm, body, legs, and head as well as various inner tensions. Keep focusing on balancing these as the rest of the process completes.
3. Pistol in ready position. Breathe.
4. Raise pistol approximately 30cm over target. Begin lowering. At top of target, take small breath and enter into neutral breath state. Ensure horizontal alignment of sights at this time (they WILL be out of alignment vertically).
5. "Touch down" in a place where the signts are perfectly aligned and the distance between the rear and front sights is symmetrical to the distance between the top of the sights and the target. Front sight is in the only part of the picture focus.
6. Gently increase trigger pressure until shot breaks. Take mental snapshot of what your sights looked like when the shot broke. Use it to call the shot and where it hit.
7. Release, breathe normally. Compare shot call to actual location. If necessary, adjust appropriately.

If, at anytime, something feels wrong, you abort. You can never take back a bad shot.

Although I just articulated all of this, it's automatic during the shot process. No thinking or other distractors allowed.

I hope this helps, but again, I'm out of my depth at this point. I don't have enough information and I don't know what information to look for to determine what's causing the issue. It could be mechanical or psychological.


Thanks for the suggestions here. My process is rather similar as yours though in step 4 I don't raise the pistol higher than the target. What purpose does this serve - I have seen others do it, as well as those who do not? I do tend to start aligning my sights below the target, where the background is uniform and lighter, in order to get a physical/visual reference which I then bring to the target. This may have more to do with my eyesight and the less than desirable lighting of my basement. The most difficult thing for me is the blackonblack Sight alignment. The more I think of it, it seems to be the only aspect of the process of shooting AP where I really feel I am at a handicap. I also am due for an eye checkup and new prescription.

Also in your description of trigger pull I think I may have a different approach. Though exactly where the pull releases the hammer may come as a surprise, there is certainly an instant and a very deliberate thought-effort to press the trigger in that split second where I feel my sights are on the X. Seems like I'm better with a red dot in making that determination.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:26 pm 
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Had a bit of a sight picture epiphany just now shooting AP. I think that has been what's holding me back; the challenge of focusing on that front sight and creating a consistent Sight picture for every shot. With a red dot that's not really an issue. Just now I was really concentrating on maintains a consistent Sight picture where my brain was able to recognize it with better consistency. Scores markedly improved!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:34 pm 
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Wonderful to hear! Keep at it!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:16 am 
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jaxontarget,

are you using a center hold with AP? That is not a good idea. I don't know of anyone who does that.
Try aiming below the black. How much below is a personal preference, I haven't shot AP for a while but with my .22 Pardini
I have a small stripe of white between the top of front sight and the black center. Some like to have the front sight touching the
bottom of the black, but you will soon find what works for you. I would recommend having about equal amounts of light on the sides and top of front sight as a good starting point. Having the front sight on a white background will show flinching and incorrect sight picture much better than a black background. Easier to shoot in less than optimal lighting conditions too. Try it, it may feel weird at first if you have always used a center hold but there are many benefits to 6-o'clock hold.


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