I'm new to the sport, and I've seen .45, .38 special, and maybe a .32 being shot bullseye. It looks like several 1911 manufacturers have .38 super models that would be as easy to set up for bullseye as any other 1911.
So, does anybody shoot .38 Super?
Is there a reason for not shooting it, or is it just historical?
Thanks.
-J.
.38 Super?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
-
Guest
-
FredM
.38 Super is a high pressure, high velocity cartridge. I don't know how well it would do loaded to lower velocity to reduce recoil. If you want to use a .35" bullet. why not use the 9mm Luger cartridge. Many 1911 design pistols are made for that cartridge and I believe that some fairly accurate loads have been developed.
I'm still confused. Tell me if I'm getting this right...
The .38 special and 9mm are usually loaded to a lower velocity than the .38 super. Therefore it's easier to make an even lighter target load for them that will still cycle the action. Is that the idea?
Even though the .38 super case is halfway between a .38 special and a 9mm, it's much less convenient to make a bullseye gun and target loads for the .38 super since you can get a softer recoil with the other two and still have a reliable gun.
Is that about right?
I guess that the practical shooters like it for the same reason it won't work well for bullseye...it has more energy than the .38 special or 9mm, but less recoil than a .45 or .357.
I was thinking about it the other way around and wondering why it would be popular in practical shooting but nowhere to be found on the bullseye line.
Thanks.
-J.
The .38 special and 9mm are usually loaded to a lower velocity than the .38 super. Therefore it's easier to make an even lighter target load for them that will still cycle the action. Is that the idea?
Even though the .38 super case is halfway between a .38 special and a 9mm, it's much less convenient to make a bullseye gun and target loads for the .38 super since you can get a softer recoil with the other two and still have a reliable gun.
Is that about right?
I guess that the practical shooters like it for the same reason it won't work well for bullseye...it has more energy than the .38 special or 9mm, but less recoil than a .45 or .357.
I was thinking about it the other way around and wondering why it would be popular in practical shooting but nowhere to be found on the bullseye line.
Thanks.
-J.
super 38
I recently purchased a Clark modified super 38. Pinmaster is inscribed on the barrel.I use it with full Remington super factory loads for Bowling pins and lighter reload semi wadcutters for bullseye It has a compensator to lessen recoil. I mounted a match ultra dot red dot sight with a grip mount and find it extremely accurate. My newness is the limiting factor in not achieving even higher scores not the gun. It was reconditioned by Clark before I purchased it.
-
mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hi
Actually, .38 Super is supposed to be a great NRA Action Pistol round. It's small, light, and with enough power to make major power factor without being dangerous. The .38 ACP which is more or less a thinner hulled .38 Super is very inaccurate. The .38 ACP didn't head space in the same place as the .38 Super. I THINK that the .38 Super head spaces on the rim like the .45 ACP. I also think that if you bought a .38 Super from either Rock River, Les Baer, or Clark Custom they could get you one that would do under 2 inches at 50 yards.
On the down side, .38 Super factory ammo is about 3x the cost of .45 ACP because no one shoots it.
Feel free to correct my memory, I didn't have time to go off an look anything up.
Mike
Wichita KS
Actually, .38 Super is supposed to be a great NRA Action Pistol round. It's small, light, and with enough power to make major power factor without being dangerous. The .38 ACP which is more or less a thinner hulled .38 Super is very inaccurate. The .38 ACP didn't head space in the same place as the .38 Super. I THINK that the .38 Super head spaces on the rim like the .45 ACP. I also think that if you bought a .38 Super from either Rock River, Les Baer, or Clark Custom they could get you one that would do under 2 inches at 50 yards.
On the down side, .38 Super factory ammo is about 3x the cost of .45 ACP because no one shoots it.
Feel free to correct my memory, I didn't have time to go off an look anything up.
Mike
Wichita KS
-
Guest
-
allgoodhits
.38 Super
Factory .38 Supers before the mid 1980's were most likely chambered to headspace off the rim. Sometime around 1984 or so Bar-Sto starting making .38 super barrels which headspaced of the case neck. Since about that time most guns have been set up to headspace off the neck.
Until chambers were cut to headspace off the neck, the cartridge did not deliver good accuracy. Orginally the .38 Super was a pretty hot load, not intended for target work.
I have five .38 Super 1911 custom guns. All have either Bar-Sto, Lissner or Schuemann barrels. All will shoot groups under 2" at 50 yds, and two of them will shoot less than 1.5" 50 yd groups.
I handload both 115 gr & 125 gr bullets using WST powder. These guns are very accurate at 1100-1150 fps in the 115 gr bullets, or 1030- 1080 fps in the 125 gr bullets. W231, BE and even Clays work well for accurate light lights.
The primary reason that .38 Super is used over 9x19 in 1911's is that quality magazines were hard to get that worked in 1911's for 9x19. That is now changing with some recent developments.
I can not imagine why a quality 1911 chambered in .38 Super would not make a good CF BE gun.
Martin
Until chambers were cut to headspace off the neck, the cartridge did not deliver good accuracy. Orginally the .38 Super was a pretty hot load, not intended for target work.
I have five .38 Super 1911 custom guns. All have either Bar-Sto, Lissner or Schuemann barrels. All will shoot groups under 2" at 50 yds, and two of them will shoot less than 1.5" 50 yd groups.
I handload both 115 gr & 125 gr bullets using WST powder. These guns are very accurate at 1100-1150 fps in the 115 gr bullets, or 1030- 1080 fps in the 125 gr bullets. W231, BE and even Clays work well for accurate light lights.
The primary reason that .38 Super is used over 9x19 in 1911's is that quality magazines were hard to get that worked in 1911's for 9x19. That is now changing with some recent developments.
I can not imagine why a quality 1911 chambered in .38 Super would not make a good CF BE gun.
Martin
-
Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Good info. If I were just getting started, I would seriously consider a 1911 type 38 Super pistol for CF. Probably not any more expensive than starting with a .32 European pistol and getting a new barrel or sleeve, which is needed for long line accuracy. Reloading is certainly a lot simpler than 32. Recoil sounds like it is comparable to a 38 spl. And best of all, it will feel like your 22 Marvel and your 45 was gun :-)
Fred
Fred
-
Allgoodhits
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:49 pm
- Location: Clifton, VA
- Contact:
.38 Super ammo
I failed to mention that yes there are some quality .38 Super factory ammo.
ZERO Ammunition loads 115 gr JHPs and 125 gr JHP's for Bianchi Cup shooters. You need to ask for the Bianchi Match loads otherwise it is hotter than most want.
The 115's run about 1160- 1180 fps and the 125's about 1070-1120 fps. Much softer than the Federal factory load of 130gr at 1250 fps. The ZERO match ammo will shoot under 2" at 50 yds in quality guns, maybe better in some. Price is pretty fair at about $15+/- box.
These are not hot loads at all, somehat comparable to standard 9mm loads.
Martin
ZERO Ammunition loads 115 gr JHPs and 125 gr JHP's for Bianchi Cup shooters. You need to ask for the Bianchi Match loads otherwise it is hotter than most want.
The 115's run about 1160- 1180 fps and the 125's about 1070-1120 fps. Much softer than the Federal factory load of 130gr at 1250 fps. The ZERO match ammo will shoot under 2" at 50 yds in quality guns, maybe better in some. Price is pretty fair at about $15+/- box.
These are not hot loads at all, somehat comparable to standard 9mm loads.
Martin
Do any of you having success with the 38 super have any comments on its use with lead bullets, especially at 38 special velocities? It would be interesting if anyone has managed to get fine bullseye accuracy and reliability with a load in the 750-800 fps using a lead bullet. That would make an impressive CF pistol!
Thanks!
Thanks!
-
john bickar
- Posts: 611
- Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 3:58 am
- Location: Corner of Walk & Don't Walk
IIRC, Ruby Fox used to shoot a compensated Marvel .38 super for center fire. I also believe that's what she was shooting when she set the Women's National Record for a 2700 at 2660-139x.
I know she was shooting a .38 super in the early-to-mid-90s, but I could be wrong about the details.
I know she was shooting a .38 super in the early-to-mid-90s, but I could be wrong about the details.
-
Allgoodhits
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:49 pm
- Location: Clifton, VA
- Contact:
.38 Super for BE
My background is PPC and NRA Action Pistol. I recently started shooting BE, and hope to continue it.
I am amazed that not more people use a compensated .38 super (1911) for BE CF matches. These guns when set up properly will shoot <2" at 50 yards, run very reliably with 2.5lb or less trigger and recoil not much different than a .22LR. LOUDER of course but soft shooting.
A Bianchi Cup type gun without the barricade shroud would be a very good BE CF gun. If compensated then lead bullets are probably not ideal.
In a compensated gun 115gr JHP's at around 1080fps - 1120 fps or 1140 - 1160 fps would be a good load. My guns will achieve this with 4.9 - 5.2 gr W231, or 4.1 - 4.3 gr Clays, or 4.6 - 4.8 gr WST. Comp guns will require frame scope mount, unless comp is not mounted to barrel. The latter are very rare.
If uncompensated, then a 125 gr lead or JHP running around 900- 1070fps should be a good load. Lead running the lower end and JHP's running the upper end. Two to four tenths less than above loads work here. I would experient with 147 gr JHP's too, in an uncompensated gun, you could run then below 900 fps with good results I am sure.
BTW, a 9mm would work fine too in a 1911 if you can get magazines that will work with soft loads. My recall is the most recent development is the magazine spacer or crimp in the front of the mag, instead of the rear spacers.
Good luck,
Martin
NRA Distinguished X 3
I am amazed that not more people use a compensated .38 super (1911) for BE CF matches. These guns when set up properly will shoot <2" at 50 yards, run very reliably with 2.5lb or less trigger and recoil not much different than a .22LR. LOUDER of course but soft shooting.
A Bianchi Cup type gun without the barricade shroud would be a very good BE CF gun. If compensated then lead bullets are probably not ideal.
In a compensated gun 115gr JHP's at around 1080fps - 1120 fps or 1140 - 1160 fps would be a good load. My guns will achieve this with 4.9 - 5.2 gr W231, or 4.1 - 4.3 gr Clays, or 4.6 - 4.8 gr WST. Comp guns will require frame scope mount, unless comp is not mounted to barrel. The latter are very rare.
If uncompensated, then a 125 gr lead or JHP running around 900- 1070fps should be a good load. Lead running the lower end and JHP's running the upper end. Two to four tenths less than above loads work here. I would experient with 147 gr JHP's too, in an uncompensated gun, you could run then below 900 fps with good results I am sure.
BTW, a 9mm would work fine too in a 1911 if you can get magazines that will work with soft loads. My recall is the most recent development is the magazine spacer or crimp in the front of the mag, instead of the rear spacers.
Good luck,
Martin
NRA Distinguished X 3
38 super accuracy
I have a PPC Masterpiece in 38 super built by SVI that has a 5 shot, 50 yard test target that measures .61". I'd say that qualifies as acceptable accuracy. Sadly, I've decided to sell it as I've only fired around 175 rounds through it and haven't had a chance to shoot it in a match in 2 years. In 2006 I priced having another one built in 9mm and it was right at $3100 and I'm sure it hasn't gotten any cheaper. Who knows what wait time is but 4-6 months comes to mind when I had this one built. This one has 5 mags and a spare front sight. I'd let it go for $2650 shipped FFL to FFL. If any questions, email me at: superx2practical@yahoo.com
-
Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
The old timers already know all of the following but many of hte newbies might not.
38 Super has been demonstrated to be a very capable round in a variety of guns and disciplines.
SVI has somewhat of a following in IPSC/PPC ( and "gang banga" style shooting) but not really in bullseye. SVI makes different guns for a different discipline typically.
As to "test targets" there is a huge difference between a cherry picked target and a typical target. There is also a huge difference between a 10-shot target and a 5-shot target (we can talk statistics if you would like). A ten-shot target is considered "standard" for evaluating BE guns by the way.
So when I see an IPSC/PPC gun advertised with a 5-shot test target it does raise a lot of questions.
Now to the "Personal Opinion" part of the post.
I would consider paying $2000+ for it as long as I was able to do several (at least 5) 10-shot groups through a ransom rest at 50 yards- and none was greater than 1.5" ES. If none was greater than 2" it might be a $1700 gun. If none was greater than 2.5" well you might be better off buying something in a more common caliber (like .45 ACP) and having a halfway decent gunsmith work on it in an M1911 frame . . .
Anyhow
Since the Beretta can hold 2" all day long in 9mm nowadays (in a Service Pistol!) I'm not sure what the appeal of a 2" .38 Super is?
(p.s. a cherry picked 0.61" 5 shot group is nowhere near equal to a [even cherry picked] 1.5" 10 shot group- statistically or otherwise.)
Much apologies GunCSI. I am not assuming you are trying to mislead anyone. I'm not making a personal attack- really- I don't even know who you are. But using a 5-shot group from an SVI gun sets off all kinds of alarm bells for a Bullseye shooter. Yes it has been a while since I have seen an SVI gun but unless I am grossly mistaken they never had- and still don't- have any kind of reputation at all for Bullseye shooting.
I certainly could be wrong and will gladly retract and apologize for any mis-statement I have made.
38 Super has been demonstrated to be a very capable round in a variety of guns and disciplines.
SVI has somewhat of a following in IPSC/PPC ( and "gang banga" style shooting) but not really in bullseye. SVI makes different guns for a different discipline typically.
As to "test targets" there is a huge difference between a cherry picked target and a typical target. There is also a huge difference between a 10-shot target and a 5-shot target (we can talk statistics if you would like). A ten-shot target is considered "standard" for evaluating BE guns by the way.
So when I see an IPSC/PPC gun advertised with a 5-shot test target it does raise a lot of questions.
Now to the "Personal Opinion" part of the post.
I would consider paying $2000+ for it as long as I was able to do several (at least 5) 10-shot groups through a ransom rest at 50 yards- and none was greater than 1.5" ES. If none was greater than 2" it might be a $1700 gun. If none was greater than 2.5" well you might be better off buying something in a more common caliber (like .45 ACP) and having a halfway decent gunsmith work on it in an M1911 frame . . .
Anyhow
Since the Beretta can hold 2" all day long in 9mm nowadays (in a Service Pistol!) I'm not sure what the appeal of a 2" .38 Super is?
(p.s. a cherry picked 0.61" 5 shot group is nowhere near equal to a [even cherry picked] 1.5" 10 shot group- statistically or otherwise.)
Much apologies GunCSI. I am not assuming you are trying to mislead anyone. I'm not making a personal attack- really- I don't even know who you are. But using a 5-shot group from an SVI gun sets off all kinds of alarm bells for a Bullseye shooter. Yes it has been a while since I have seen an SVI gun but unless I am grossly mistaken they never had- and still don't- have any kind of reputation at all for Bullseye shooting.
I certainly could be wrong and will gladly retract and apologize for any mis-statement I have made.
-
Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
The old timers already know all of the following but many of hte newbies might not.
38 Super has been demonstrated to be a very capable round in a variety of guns and disciplines.
SVI has somewhat of a following in IPSC/PPC ( and "gang banga" style shooting) but not really in bullseye. SVI makes different guns for a different discipline typically.
As to "test targets" there is a huge difference between a cherry picked target and a typical target. There is also a huge difference between a 10-shot target and a 5-shot target (we can talk statistics if you would like). A ten-shot target is considered "standard" for evaluating BE guns by the way.
So when I see an IPSC/PPC gun advertised with a 5-shot test target it does raise a lot of questions.
Now to the "Personal Opinion" part of the post.
I would consider paying $2000+ for it as long as I was able to do several (at least 5) 10-shot groups through a ransom rest at 50 yards- and none was greater than 1.5" ES. If none was greater than 2" it might be a $1700 gun. If none was greater than 2.5" well you might be better off buying something in a more common caliber (like .45 ACP) and having a halfway decent gunsmith work on it in an M1911 frame . . .
Anyhow
Since the Beretta can hold 2" all day long in 9mm nowadays (in a Service Pistol!) I'm not sure what the appeal of a 2" .38 Super is?
(p.s. a cherry picked 0.61" 5 shot group is nowhere near equal to a [even cherry picked] 1.5" 10 shot group- statistically or otherwise.)
Much apologies GunCSI. I am not assuming you are trying to mislead anyone. I'm not making a personal attack- really- I don't even know who you are. But using a 5-shot group from an SVI gun sets off all kinds of alarm bells for a Bullseye shooter. Yes it has been a while since I have seen an SVI gun but unless I am grossly mistaken they never had- and still don't- have any kind of reputation at all for Bullseye shooting.
I certainly could be wrong and will gladly retract and apologize for any mis-statement I have made.
38 Super has been demonstrated to be a very capable round in a variety of guns and disciplines.
SVI has somewhat of a following in IPSC/PPC ( and "gang banga" style shooting) but not really in bullseye. SVI makes different guns for a different discipline typically.
As to "test targets" there is a huge difference between a cherry picked target and a typical target. There is also a huge difference between a 10-shot target and a 5-shot target (we can talk statistics if you would like). A ten-shot target is considered "standard" for evaluating BE guns by the way.
So when I see an IPSC/PPC gun advertised with a 5-shot test target it does raise a lot of questions.
Now to the "Personal Opinion" part of the post.
I would consider paying $2000+ for it as long as I was able to do several (at least 5) 10-shot groups through a ransom rest at 50 yards- and none was greater than 1.5" ES. If none was greater than 2" it might be a $1700 gun. If none was greater than 2.5" well you might be better off buying something in a more common caliber (like .45 ACP) and having a halfway decent gunsmith work on it in an M1911 frame . . .
Anyhow
Since the Beretta can hold 2" all day long in 9mm nowadays (in a Service Pistol!) I'm not sure what the appeal of a 2" .38 Super is?
(p.s. a cherry picked 0.61" 5 shot group is nowhere near equal to a [even cherry picked] 1.5" 10 shot group- statistically or otherwise.)
Much apologies GunCSI. I am not assuming you are trying to mislead anyone. I'm not making a personal attack- really- I don't even know who you are. But using a 5-shot group from an SVI gun sets off all kinds of alarm bells for a Bullseye shooter. Yes it has been a while since I have seen an SVI gun but unless I am grossly mistaken they never had- and still don't- have any kind of reputation at all for Bullseye shooting.
I certainly could be wrong and will gladly retract and apologize for any mis-statement I have made.
-
Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Steve, that remark was uncalled for. I view it as pejoritive and I'm surprised, since I suspect you have shot some of those 'non precision' pistol shooting disciplines. Or are you one of those who believe that AP/FP are the pinnacle of the pistol sports? Or maybe you just had a bad day..............Steve Swartz wrote: SVI has somewhat of a following in IPSC/PPC ( and "gang banga" style shooting) but not really in bullseye.
Fred
-
Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Fred (and GunCSI):
Please accept my sincerest and humblest of apologies for any hurt feelings- it wasn't my intent to in any way make this personal.
I did not mean to imply that GunCSI was knowingly trying to "sell a pig in a poke." It wasn't my intent to personally offend. [Yes I also shoot the "fun stuff" (think Cowboy Action and black powder)].
My intent is always only to inform, discuss, and learn; never to offend.
All of that being honestly, sincerely, and forthrightly said, however, we still have the original issue somewhat unresolved. I would stick my nose in if I saw a guy trying to sell a Ruger Vaquero as an international center fire gun. (the Vaquero is a fine single action cowboy revolver; but not necessarily as a 25 meter CF pistol)
The SVI has never been (for a whole variety of reasons) a "recognized" bullseye gun. Yes, you could buy one and turn it over to a competent gunsmith and it would probably do. I did not catch that GunCSI made that claim however. If that is the case, then that would be a very significant additional piece of information (along with the name of the gunsmith who performed the tuning).
Also, a 5-shot test target is as inappropriate for evaluating a BE gun as a 10-shot test target is completely unecessary for evaluating a 10 meter air pistol.
I apologize for any offense caused.
I will apologize for my statement of the facts as soon as someone can provide evidence that 1) SVI is now building real BE guns, and 2) 5-shot groups are now standard for evaluating BE guns.
I could defintely be wrong and will apologize humbly and profusely if someone can point me to better information.
Just to state up front can we agree that SVI marketing literature wouldn't be an objective source . . .
Anyhow, yes, I should have kept my nose out of it. Not sure why Scotty created the Buy/Sell/Trade area in the first place.
Please accept my sincerest and humblest of apologies for any hurt feelings- it wasn't my intent to in any way make this personal.
I did not mean to imply that GunCSI was knowingly trying to "sell a pig in a poke." It wasn't my intent to personally offend. [Yes I also shoot the "fun stuff" (think Cowboy Action and black powder)].
My intent is always only to inform, discuss, and learn; never to offend.
All of that being honestly, sincerely, and forthrightly said, however, we still have the original issue somewhat unresolved. I would stick my nose in if I saw a guy trying to sell a Ruger Vaquero as an international center fire gun. (the Vaquero is a fine single action cowboy revolver; but not necessarily as a 25 meter CF pistol)
The SVI has never been (for a whole variety of reasons) a "recognized" bullseye gun. Yes, you could buy one and turn it over to a competent gunsmith and it would probably do. I did not catch that GunCSI made that claim however. If that is the case, then that would be a very significant additional piece of information (along with the name of the gunsmith who performed the tuning).
Also, a 5-shot test target is as inappropriate for evaluating a BE gun as a 10-shot test target is completely unecessary for evaluating a 10 meter air pistol.
I apologize for any offense caused.
I will apologize for my statement of the facts as soon as someone can provide evidence that 1) SVI is now building real BE guns, and 2) 5-shot groups are now standard for evaluating BE guns.
I could defintely be wrong and will apologize humbly and profusely if someone can point me to better information.
Just to state up front can we agree that SVI marketing literature wouldn't be an objective source . . .
Anyhow, yes, I should have kept my nose out of it. Not sure why Scotty created the Buy/Sell/Trade area in the first place.
-
2650 Plus
BE pistols And there tests
The USAMU has , for many years used three 10 shot groups to establish the accuracy standard for all hand guns used by their shooters.Gary Andersons international 300 meter rifle was tested with 10 ten shot groups at the full 300meter range All groups were less than one inch and he won the world championship with that rifle. This is one case where Steve and I are in complete aggrement. Be happy that he had the courage to buck an advertisement and present the facts as he knew them to be. Good job Steve, And Good Shooting Bill Horton