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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:28 am 

Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:05 pm
Posts: 53
Hi all
Reading the replies based on tradition , history and stuborness tells us a lot about the shooters current demographics. Certainly a vivid problem that is stopping the bullseye sport from growing.

Actually, i found the answer to my original question from the CMP 21st 2017 edition pistol rules

1911 type service pistol must be no smaller than 9mm and no bigger than 45

I know
Somebody will build a 1911 in 380 acp and claim it is a 9mm diameter bullet.

Looking at the way the equipment rules have changed over the past 10 -20 years tells me that for the sport to survive the rules must allow competitor to shoot with whtever they want as long as it doesnt provide an evident competitive advantage, such as shooting from a sand bag.

I will go back to Camp Perry if the rules allows me to shoot a 2700 with 22, 9mm , and 9mm


PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:29 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:57 pm
Posts: 557
Location: California
coker wrote:
Hello all
When will the NRA change the rule for the 45 portion of the match to be shot with a 9mm?
I shoot 22 and the Beretta in service pistol, but i can not shoot a full 2700 bcs i prefer to not shoot the 45
NRA has the 2700 all in 22s , i tried it once, but found it super boring to shoot 3/4 of a brick of ammo 3 times the same thing

Anybody in favor for allowing a 9mm for the 45 match?


Why do you not want to shoot the 45?

I prefer shooting my steel 45 to a plastic 9mm. To me, the extra weight of the steel 45 dampens the recoil more than the flex of the plastic 9mm.
Though I have not shot a steel/alloy 9mm, so I cannot say how that would feel in my hand.

As was mentioned, you could also reduce the 45 load, to shoot milder.

Last edited by GaryN on Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:28 pm 

Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:20 pm
Posts: 5170
Location: Scottsdale AZ
I see the Army is giving its .45s to the CMP for resale to you heathens.

They didn't know what to do with them anyway.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:50 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 2:36 pm
Posts: 149
I don't know what it is about changing the equipment to someone's desired options that's important to keeping the sport "alive"?

Our local matches are generally full and sometimes have waiting list. People were turned away because the state match was full.

Maybe, it's not got anything to do with equipment?

Maybe, if more people promoted, advertised, facilitated and supported the existing matches, there would be more growth.

Maybe, if more people put on matches, there would be even more growth.

But, wait a minute, that means that someone would have to do something themselves rather than trying to get someone else to change something.

Oh, well.

You all have fun. If you want to shoot matches, move to North Carolina. There's a 2700 one every weekend from March to November. And several more in all the nearby states within acceptable drive times.

The way to more participation is more promotion of them. The way to have more match is that someone has to put them on and run them. In both cases some ONE has to do something.

If you want the sport to die, just keep on going to same match and just shooting, rather than helping out or putting one on yourself, or getting more people together and putting a club together. Every club out there started with a few guys that just wanted to shoot. Find them and get started.

I guess I done ranting now. You all have a nice day!


PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 3:58 am
Posts: 549
Location: Corner of Walk & Don't Walk
CR10X wrote:
The way to more participation is more promotion of (matches). The way to have more match(es) is that someone has to put them on and run them. In both cases some ONE has to do something.

If you want the sport to die, just keep on going to same match and just shooting, rather than helping out or putting one on yourself


PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:17 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:56 pm
Posts: 488
Location: MInnesota
coker wrote:
Actually, i found the answer to my original question from the CMP 21st 2017 edition pistol rules

1911 type service pistol must be no smaller than 9mm and no bigger than 45 <= this is for EIC (30 shot) & P100 (40 shot) matches

I will go back to Camp Perry if the rules allows me to shoot a 2700 with 22, 9mm , and 9mm <= About a 0% probability

Looks like you will never get back to Perry to shoot a 2700.
- Dave

Certified Safety Instructor: Rifle & Pistol
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
~ Ben Franklin

PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:31 am 

Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:43 pm
Posts: 20
CR10X wrote:
Just a thought, but considering the number of 1911's currently in use by Ops groups, etc., its probably being used as much as it actually ever was "used" by the military. (Just ask KC Crawford and some others that have built the guns.)

I think most will find when reviewing the scores, the .45 Aggregate is lower in overall average scores than the other Aggregates. (Of course I may be wrong, but I have only been running matches, doing stats and shooting for slightly less than 20 years. Someone else may have a better perspective.)

As far as I can tell, since the inception of the 3 gun Aggregate, the use of adjustable sights has been allowed.

If a NRA Sanctioned Match wants to use the Service Pistol (or any specific type of firearm as described in the rules), the match can be approved for that specific pistol / aggregate (Rule 1.8 and Rule 3.1, 3.1.1, & 3.1.2). And don't forget the shooters can further be stratified and Classified by Division (Rule 3.0) if applicable.

So the rules don't have to be changed, just set up a match and run one with the "Service Pistol" (.45 or 9mm) if you want to. Or just a .22 and Centerfire Aggregate, etc.

The main reason most matches have the standard format (Open, .22, any centerfire, .45) is that is what most people will show up to shoot. Any match can try something different, as long as the rules provide for it, just read the rules and put on a match. But the NRA is not stopping anyone from having a Service Pistol match with .45 or 9mm. And lots of matches are 2 Aggregates only, (.22 and CF) and I have a few shooters that shoot only the first 2 Aggs at our match.

Believe me, for the most part, match directors put on matches that will draw the most shooters.

So what's the big issue here?


Good point. Current NRA configuration allows match directors to modify on an as needed basis.
As a new shooter, I will submit that the big issue here is that the sport of BE is slowly dying and aligning the BE equipment requirements to closely resemble the CMP requirements is a good thing for the BE sport. Shooting a .45 in EIC is no longer a necessity so trying to bring someone into the BE sport from EIC competitions may require them to purchase more equipment. Thus being cost prohibitive.

I have shot rifles competitively for about 15 years. I was first introduced through a reduced distance CMP clinic at a local range and fell in love with competitive shooting. Without the CMP grass roots programs and the easy transfer of equipment in the rifle game from CMP to NRA matches, I may not have been able to get as involved as I had wanted to.

The long and short of my point is that keeping cost/ease of entry for new shooters should always be on the forfront of our minds when scheduling and registering matches.

Thanks for your service as a match director. It is truely a service to our sport and everyone should pitch in and try doing it for a season in my opinion.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:42 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:46 am
Posts: 448
Location: Western Washington State, USA

I disagree with the cost issue.

You buy a used pistol for say $1000.00 and shoot it for several years.

When you decide to try something else, sell the used pistol for $1000.00.

What is the resale value of the used Iphone? Folks readily find the money for these toys not to mention the monthly/yearly service fees.



PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:04 am
Posts: 429
Location: Montreal, Québec, Canada
Competition is an artificial contrivance. The contrivance for BE is 2700 with 22, CF, 45, one-handed.
Any competition that isn't bursting at the seams with competitors could certainly open up their competition with open categories and encourage as many people to participate for fun as possible. But I don't see why any concessions in the serious competition rules needs to be made.
If the idea is to grow the sport, that has to happen at practice. Not at competition.
Lure them in to practice days during regular range days, then at practice lure them in to competition. If the 45 competition bug doesn't bite them before their first competition, they shoot only 22, or as others have said shoot the 1800 with or without firing the third part with something else for the heck of it. Then if the competition bug bites them, tell them to get a 45 and that you're looking forward to seeing them with it at the next practice day.
If the OP wants to compete and shooting all 22 isn't a challenge anymore, I'd say it's time to step up, buy a 45, and follow the rules as-is. At the very least, if you're going to shoot 2700 I would hope the suggestion would be to use a different gun and calibre in each of the CF matches.

- Smith & Wesson SW22 Victory
- FAS SP607

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:07 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:44 pm
Posts: 496
First, I shot with some MARSOC guys carrying 1911s in Afghanistan not too long ago. Second, the .45 match is not a "1911 only" match. Some folks use Pardini GT45s, some use S&W 625s, etc. Third, can you really say that firing a .45acp isn't more challenging than firing a 9x19 gun? There needs to be something that differentiates CF from .45.

FWIW, I kind of agree with you about the iron sights bit.

6string wrote:
I think the OP has a point.
The 1911 is no longer the US service pistol. It hasn't been since the early 1980s. Why not just make folks shoot a Colt SAA with black powder loads?

Furthermore, the 45 stage is not the "challenge" some purport it to be.

A better 2700 structure would be 22 stage, any sights CF stage, and a service pistol stage that strictly adheres to the spirit of a service pistol, a la CMP rules. (Iron sights ONLY).
That way, you can use a 9mm, 45 or whatever as long as it is a true service pistol.

This argument that the 45 stage needs to remain such because of the "challenge" is a crock. If you want a challenge, or want to stick with tradition, follow the original rules for the 45 stage and shoot a 1911 with fixed iron sights and hardball.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:34 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:11 pm
Posts: 18
So the OP doesn't want to buy a 45, and he wants the NRA to change the rules to accommodate him, personally? I don't think so.

We can all think of ways to change the rules to benefit ourselves. Either so we score higher, or just change it to make it what we think "it ought to be".

Play the game, or don't play the game. Or make up your own game, and play it somewhere else.

I like it the way it is.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 3:21 pm
Posts: 213
Location: Gainesville, Florida
All BE shooters who want to be master shooters must overcome that hurdle. Shooting a 1911 45 well is hard, but certainly not impossible and it is where grounding in basic target pistol technic pays the most. By the way, women can shoot a 45 very well too, so it's not a sex-linked barrier. Shoot the nine in centerfire and practice with the 45. Make sure you are using a good pistol, a good load, load carefully, and follow through on all the techniques (hint, it's mostly all trigger pull, but proper mental status, confidence, stance, grip, breathing, and yes, attitude, are important basics). Dipnet

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