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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:55 pm 
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Hello all
When will the NRA change the rule for the 45 portion of the match to be shot with a 9mm?
I shoot 22 and the Beretta in service pistol, but i can not shoot a full 2700 bcs i prefer to not shoot the 45
NRA has the 2700 all in 22s , i tried it once, but found it super boring to shoot 3/4 of a brick of ammo 3 times the same thing

Anybody in favor for allowing a 9mm for the 45 match?

Cheers


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:07 pm 
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coker wrote:
Hello all
When will the NRA change the rule for the 45 portion of the match to be shot with a 9mm?
I shoot 22 and the Beretta in service pistol, but i can not shoot a full 2700 bcs i prefer to not shoot the 45
NRA has the 2700 all in 22s , i tried it once, but found it super boring to shoot 3/4 of a brick of ammo 3 times the same thing

Anybody in favor for allowing a 9mm for the 45 match?

Cheers

Just shoot your 22 for the 22 portion, your 9 for center fire and a 45 for the 45.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:12 pm 
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Location: B.E. Master indoor & out in WI
coker wrote:
Hello all
When will the NRA change the rule for the 45 portion of the match to be shot with a 9mm?
I shoot 22 and the Beretta in service pistol, but i can not shoot a full 2700 bcs i prefer to not shoot the 45
NRA has the 2700 all in 22s , i tried it once, but found it super boring to shoot 3/4 of a brick of ammo 3 times the same thing

Anybody in favor for allowing a 9mm for the 45 match?

Cheers


No.
The spirit of BE was .22 for civilian, .38 for police and .45 for military.
That is what it should be IMHO.
But BE has been gamed to two guns, the .22 and .45
So either shoot two or three guns for the 2700, that simple.
This is from a shooter that has had his BE days and is moving on but still has what is needed to do it if I want to :)

Clarence

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:13 pm
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coker wrote:
Hello all

Anybody in favor for allowing a 9mm for the 45 match?

Cheers


HELL NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Having said that, you can shoot powder puff 45 loads. I use 3.3-3.4 gr BE with 185 or 200 lswc for shortline. I'm moody for longline and use 3.4-3.8 gr for longline.
Just learn how to shoot the 45 and you'll start to enjoy it.
My powder puff shortline loads are softer than 9mm recoil.
Jon


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:25 pm 
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My point is
In todays modern days, why dont allow the 9mm in the 45 match?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:10 am 
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Because it is a .45 match not a 9mm.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:18 am 
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The images say it all...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:28 am 
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Sounds like a can of worms got opened.
45acp over 9mm. I don't think so.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:44 am 
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coker wrote:
i prefer to not shoot the 45
Anybody in favor for allowing a 9mm for the 45 match?

As a new BE shooter, the .45 is hard for me to tame (but getting better every outing!), which is part of the challenge.

If the 9 is preferable for you, just shoot an 1800 and skip the .45 matches - or work with the match director to not report your third 900 to NRA or use it for winners calculation. Then you can fire 2 matches with a 9 for fun. I bet your fellow competitors will offer you their spare .45 with bunny fart loads and then your will be on the hunt for a BE built .45.

By the way, if firing .22 for multiple 900s is boring, why won't firing the 9 for multiple matches be the same thing? Keep yourself from being bored, shoot .22 900 - 9mm 900 - .45 900!

"Change yourself to match the world's expectations, it is far easier than the alternative."


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:29 am 
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Location: MInnesota
coker wrote:
Hello all
Anybody in favor for allowing a 9mm for the 45 match?
Cheers

No, don't be absurd, it's the .45 match.
-Dave

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:36 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 2:36 pm
Posts: 148
No, I am not in favor. If anyone wants to play the game like that, then just head on over to a CMP match.

What next, let people shoot a .22 in the Center Fire Match?

We already have 3 choices; .22, any Centerfire =>.32 and .45. If someone wants to just shoot a 9mm, they can shoot the Center Fire match.

(If someone wants to win matches, I'd suggest getting a 22 and a .45 and reduce the distractions. While running matches and processing stats, I've noticed that in the long run, in each class, the more people shoot smaller calibers in the CF match and then the .45 in the .45 match; the bigger the overall winning margin is for someone else that shot the .45 in both. But then again, what do I know?)

CR


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:09 pm
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Location: Chesterfield Missouri
We shoot the 45 simply because it is a challenge.

I started shooting the 32 ACP in the center fire matches more because it was a challenge to get it to shoot accurately than because of recoil.

Recoil don't seem to bother me at all probably because when I shot in the AMU back in the 60's all beginners had to shoot the entire 45 portion with government hardball for a year. Our center fire scores with 38 revolver were way higher than the 45 but mainly because of the slow fire scores. Very little difference at the short line.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 4:05 pm
Posts: 103
there is always IDPA.....

why do we shoot the .45, because they don't make a .46


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:44 pm
Posts: 489
coker wrote:
Hello all
When will the NRA change the rule for the 45 portion of the match to be shot with a 9mm?
I shoot 22 and the Beretta in service pistol, but i can not shoot a full 2700 bcs i prefer to not shoot the 45
NRA has the 2700 all in 22s , i tried it once, but found it super boring to shoot 3/4 of a brick of ammo 3 times the same thing

Anybody in favor for allowing a 9mm for the 45 match?

Cheers

The fact that you're shooting .45 is an integral part of the challenge. Asking to shoot 9mm in the .45 match would be like saying let's make marathons only 5km long.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:15 am 
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I think the OP has a point.
The 1911 is no longer the US service pistol. It hasn't been since the early 1980s. Why not just make folks shoot a Colt SAA with black powder loads?

Furthermore, the 45 stage is not the "challenge" some purport it to be.

A better 2700 structure would be 22 stage, any sights CF stage, and a service pistol stage that strictly adheres to the spirit of a service pistol, a la CMP rules. (Iron sights ONLY).
That way, you can use a 9mm, 45 or whatever as long as it is a true service pistol.

This argument that the 45 stage needs to remain such because of the "challenge" is a crock. If you want a challenge, or want to stick with tradition, follow the original rules for the 45 stage and shoot a 1911 with fixed iron sights and hardball.

Jim


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:39 am 
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Just a thought, but considering the number of 1911's currently in use by Ops groups, etc., its probably being used as much as it actually ever was "used" by the military. (Just ask KC Crawford and some others that have built the guns.)

I think most will find when reviewing the scores, the .45 Aggregate is lower in overall average scores than the other Aggregates. (Of course I may be wrong, but I have only been running matches, doing stats and shooting for slightly less than 20 years. Someone else may have a better perspective.)

As far as I can tell, since the inception of the 3 gun Aggregate, the use of adjustable sights has been allowed.

If a NRA Sanctioned Match wants to use the Service Pistol (or any specific type of firearm as described in the rules), the match can be approved for that specific pistol / aggregate (Rule 1.8 and Rule 3.1, 3.1.1, & 3.1.2). And don't forget the shooters can further be stratified and Classified by Division (Rule 3.0) if applicable.

So the rules don't have to be changed, just set up a match and run one with the "Service Pistol" (.45 or 9mm) if you want to. Or just a .22 and Centerfire Aggregate, etc.

The main reason most matches have the standard format (Open, .22, any centerfire, .45) is that is what most people will show up to shoot. Any match can try something different, as long as the rules provide for it, just read the rules and put on a match. But the NRA is not stopping anyone from having a Service Pistol match with .45 or 9mm. And lots of matches are 2 Aggregates only, (.22 and CF) and I have a few shooters that shoot only the first 2 Aggs at our match.

Believe me, for the most part, match directors put on matches that will draw the most shooters.

So what's the big issue here?

CR


Last edited by CR10X on Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:01 am 
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Location: Scottsdale AZ
Well, SOME of the U.S. military has realized that going to 9mm was a mistake and has returned to the .45.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:48 am 
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Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 2:21 pm
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Location: Virginia
I am constantly amazed at the variations made on the 1911 'Colt' 45 acp. Several companies make all the parts and a few make the compete pistol. Virtually every part can be customized and it seems there are many companies that specialize in just that. It''s also impressive that accurizing the 1911 isn't that difficult - when compared to a Beretta M9. Rarely at a range there is no .45 acp brass laying around.

The US switch from the .45 to 9mm occurred in the late 1970's. I always had the impression the move to 9mm was so the USA could supply ammunition to NATO, but the official description was to have a uniform pistol cartridge throughout all NATO forces.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:17 am 
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6string wrote:
The 1911 is no longer the US service pistol. It hasn't been since the early 1980s.
Jim


Hi Jim,
For giggles, the .22 isn't the defacto civilian target pistol anymore, nor is the .38 the police standard anymore. So would that make a 2700 90 shots each of 9mm, 9mm, and 9mm? ;-)
Ian


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:44 am 
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aprilian wrote:
Hi Jim,
For giggles, the .22 isn't the defacto civilian target pistol anymore, nor is the .38 the police standard anymore. So would that make a 2700 90 shots each of 9mm, 9mm, and 9mm? ;-)
Ian


Hi Ian,
Good point! ...in a way. Certainly makes for good conversation!
At my club, 22 is indeed still the civilian pistol of choice. But, not by much! Plastic 9mms and 40s abound. But, I'd hardly call them target pistols, nor do I recognize their usage as having much to do with marksmanship.
For now, the 22 is THE default target pistol the world over.
As for CF, while 38 was once the convention, it is not virtually a requirement to shoot the match. You can shoot what you want.
The 45 stage moved away from being a service pistol match when they allowed cream-puff wadcutter loads, light triggers, orthopedic grips and adjustable sights. The NRA finally killed any semblance when they allowed scopes/electronic sights.
Considering how arbitrarily it has evolved, it's kind of bizarre that the modern 1911 target 45 has become the de rigeur.
I know some people consider the 45 stage as is, to be a challenge. But, to see how much folks rely on all these crutches, just look at the drop in scores for the Reeves/distinguished revolver matches.

Maybe the Canadian convention is worth looking at: just shoot an 1800, rimfire then CF? In 2700, CF and 45 have become a redundancy. Just shoot an any CF stage, use what you like, and call it a day!

By contrast, in the UK they had a classic service pistol match fired pretty much like int'l C.F., except you had to use an unmodified service pistol made no later than Armistice Day of WWI. A 1911 was fine, but not a 1911A1. Lots of Lugers, 455 Webleys, etc.
Now, THAT was a challenging service pistol match!!

But, in a way, this is all a moot point. NRA has already thrown in the towel with the Action Pistol "spray and pray" games. So, even if we came to any consensus as to what the future of Bullseye should/could be, it likely won't happen, assuming the game survives at all.
Still, this is an interesting thread, with some good comments throughout.
Also, no disrespect to the 1911 service pistol

Best Regards,
Jim


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